Battery charging issues

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Peter Butler
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Battery charging issues

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:45 am

Can someone offer advice on recharging battery packs please?
The problem I have is due to two main issues... firstly Covid lockdown and the inability to hold railway meetings, and second, my personal preference of making, not running, models has resulted in long periods of battery discharge. Poor excuses I know, but that's life!
All of my battery packs are as shown below and I have at least five which will not hold charge.....
IMG_9006.JPG
IMG_9006.JPG (126.79 KiB) Viewed 4086 times
In my ignorance of such things, I wondered whether there are just one or two cells which have failed whilst the rest are OK? So, I took it upon myself to try to separate the pack into individual cells to see what is inside....
IMG_9007.JPG
IMG_9007.JPG (134.9 KiB) Viewed 4086 times
Each battery has a solder tag on top and bottom so I think I can solder up a unit of good cells once I know which are the good ones.
So, my problem is how to identify individual cells which will accept charge and then perform under load?
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Jimmyb » Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:53 am

Batteries if allowed to run flat (fully discharged), and especially stay flat for any length of time will never fully recover, some will never recover. It has been said that applying a "shock" charge to then may work, but personally I would not do it, unless you fully understand the risk.
Once a rechargeable battery has gone, then just buy new.
If in your packs you can identify (positively) good batteries then you could build a new pack (though you could be building further trouble), however I would not mix old and new to re-build your packs. I think you may need to "bite the bullet" and invest in new batteries

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:13 am

Thank you Jimmy, your reply is perhaps not what I hoped for but you have far more knowledge on the subject so I will take your advice. I would like to buy individual cells in future but the plastic holders are larger than packs so they will not fit into spaces designed for the original packs inside my scratch-built locos.
Is there another way of linking them?
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Jimmyb » Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:19 am

Peter Butler wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:13 am Thank you Jimmy, your reply is perhaps not what I hoped for but you have far more knowledge on the subject so I will take your advice. I would like to buy individual cells in future but the plastic holders are larger than packs so they will not fit into spaces designed for the original packs inside my scratch-built locos.
Is there another way of linking them?
I would hold off, this is just my opinion, others may have differing views. You can buy tagged batteries to make your own packs, but the solution is not to allow the batteries to become flat. My experience with non-loco batteries is that some appliances (with removable batteries), flatten quicker if the batteries are left in, even when switched off, and that I don't always use some of these as regularly as I should, so now about every 3 months I go around charging anything with batteries that has not been used.

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by SKGLB » Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:54 am

Batteries and care for maintaining the charge is a separate chapter.

I switched all batteries to eneloop/Sanyo.

Do not need these as a supplier of driving current in battery locomotives, but for transmitters/receivers.

Was able to determine that battery packs that were not used for more than 1 year or were charged in between still have three quarters of their capacity.

Admittedly, batteries from this brand are a little more expensive, but in the long run it is an investment that I believe is worthwhile.

No, I am not related to the manufacturer, nor involved in any way in the sales of this manufacturer. These are just my personal experiences.

Greetings from Austria, Gerald ;)

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by TonyW » Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:17 pm

There is a nice man called Roger who will sell you some replacements: http://www.strikalite.co.uk/
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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by ge_rik » Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:57 pm

Go for the low self discharge cells. They are a bit more expensive but hold their charge (up to 70% in a year). I see Roger has some tagged LSD cells ....
https://www.strikalite.co.uk/prodcat_ty ... eries.html

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by philipy » Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:26 pm

ge_rik wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:57 pm Go for the low self discharge cells. They are a bit more expensive but hold their charge (up to 70% in a year). I see Roger has some tagged LSD cells ....
https://www.strikalite.co.uk/prodcat_ty ... eries.html

Rik
I used those in the Chingford Contractors Loco. Seem to be Ok so far although they haven't had a lot of use.
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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Phil.P » Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:57 pm

As others have said:
Any cells recovered, need to be checked. - You *can* then make these into new packs, but be aware they will never be as good as they were, and some of the cells will not probably not hold a charge for very long.

Make a note of how many cells in the pack. The voltage the pack gives, and check this every three months, and give them a top-up charge. - You could run the loco for a while, and see if the voltage is dropping-off. This would give you early warning of more problems.

Using button-top (ordinary) cells, in holders, in not the greatest idea, unless you are taking them out of the loco's regularly. - If jarred, cells can become dislodged. You can then get bad running, hot-spots, and charging issues.

Brand new LSD (Low Self Discharge) packs, from Strikalite, would be best.
As long as you switch things off, these packs will survive, a long off-season, when you don't run things.

I always advocate charging your loco's after a session.
I only stray from this, if I know I will be using the loco within a week or two.

Have a simple way to remember:
Loco's nose-in on the shelf, need charging.. Nose-out, means they have been charged.


If you have a number of loco's, but are unlikely to run them for many months;
Standardise on a couple of sizes/shapes of battery pack, and a connector-type. Then don't have so many packs, and do not keep them in the loco's.

Phil.P

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Andrew » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:47 pm

Sorry to hear about your woes Peter, but I'm glad it's not just me!

I prefer individual cells too, for the same reason...

Good luck with getting it all sorted...

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:50 pm

Many thanks for all the replies, I am grateful for the advice.... but... I have set myself a problem (or two) by not understanding the potential pitfalls before I started building locos in ways which make the batteries difficult to get at and are a snug fit in each one.
Individual batteries in holders do not fit in several locos and are not the way forward it seems. Packs are the best way but will need to remain in the locos for the above reasons of access. I will need to be more vigilant in the charging routine in future.
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Andrew » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:53 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:50 pm I will need to be more vigilant in the charging routine in future.
Me too!

I liked Phil P's advice re charging after runs and placing locos back on the shelf accordingly - thank you!

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by GTB » Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:08 pm

SKGLB wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:54 am I switched all batteries to eneloop/Sanyo.
Note, Eneloop batteries are now sold by Panasonic, who took over Sanyo a few years ago when they went broke.

Like Peter, I enjoy building models more than I do running them and I'm even less interested in monkeying around keeping ordinary type NiMH batteries from self discharging themselves into oblivion in a few years.

I converted all my battery powered railmotors and diesels to the white label Eneloops about 5 years ago when the original NiMH batteries started to fail and have fitted them to all new builds since then. My Garratt arrived with a 4 cell Eneloop pack for the r/c which is possibly 8 years old and still has no problems holding a charge for months at a time. There's also a higher power and more expensive Eneloops with a black label, but I've had no reason to use them. When I changed to Eneloops, I invested in a decent quality automatic charger as well.

The current fourth generation Eneloop cells are supplied pre-charged and are claimed by Panasonic to retain 90% charge after a year and retain 70% charge after 10 years of storage. I haven't had any of mine that long, but have no reason to disbelieve it. I don't bother to charge a model before I run it, instead I charge after the run and have always found they are ready for use, even after many months packed away.

There are cheaper clones available and Jaycar sold some for a while, but now only sell Eneloops. There's a clone set in one of my small railmotors, as I couldn't find Eneloops locally at the time. They seem to be holding up so far, but time will tell I guess.

The suppliers I use for Eneloop packs are in Aust, so not a lot of use to you. Some r/c hobby shops in Oz stock a range of Eneloop packs from a company in Sydney and if I can find a company in a NSW coastal town that will make up any size/shape of Eneloop pack that isn't in the shops, there should be someone in the UK that can do the same thing.

As Gerald mentioned, care and feeding of rechargeable batteries is a whole other subject. The best online reference I'm aware of is this one. https://batteryuniversity.com/articles

It will even teach you about the care and feeding of that invention of the devil the LiPo...........

A final note. It's not recommended to solder the tabs on rechargeable cells, as the internals are easily damaged by heat. Commercial packs are spot welded together, which acts much faster, so doesn't transfer much heat into the cell.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by ge_rik » Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:34 pm

Phil.P wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:57 pm
Loco's nose-in on the shelf, need charging.. Nose-out, means they have been charged.
Same here. I like keeping things simple ......

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by GAP » Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:05 pm

GTB wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:08 pm
SKGLB wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:54 am I switched all batteries to eneloop/Sanyo.
Note, Eneloop batteries are now sold by Panasonic, who took over Sanyo a few years ago when they went broke.

Like Peter, I enjoy building models more than I do running them and I'm even less interested in monkeying around keeping ordinary type NiMH batteries from self discharging themselves into oblivion in a few years.

I converted all my battery powered railmotors and diesels to the white label Eneloops about 5 years ago when the original NiMH batteries started to fail and have fitted them to all new builds since then. My Garratt arrived with a 4 cell Eneloop pack for the r/c which is possibly 8 years old and still has no problems holding a charge for months at a time. There's also a higher power and more expensive Eneloops with a black label, but I've had no reason to use them. When I changed to Eneloops, I invested in a decent quality automatic charger as well.

The current fourth generation Eneloop cells are supplied pre-charged and are claimed by Panasonic to retain 90% charge after a year and retain 70% charge after 10 years of storage. I haven't had any of mine that long, but have no reason to disbelieve it. I don't bother to charge a model before I run it, instead I charge after the run and have always found they are ready for use, even after many months packed away.

There are cheaper clones available and Jaycar sold some for a while, but now only sell Eneloops. There's a clone set in one of my small railmotors, as I couldn't find Eneloops locally at the time. They seem to be holding up so far, but time will tell I guess.

The suppliers I use for Eneloop packs are in Aust, so not a lot of use to you. Some r/c hobby shops in Oz stock a range of Eneloop packs from a company in Sydney and if I can find a company in a NSW coastal town that will make up any size/shape of Eneloop pack that isn't in the shops, there should be someone in the UK that can do the same thing.

As Gerald mentioned, care and feeding of rechargeable batteries is a whole other subject. The best online reference I'm aware of is this one. https://batteryuniversity.com/articles

It will even teach you about the care and feeding of that invention of the devil the LiPo...........

A final note. It's not recommended to solder the tabs on rechargeable cells, as the internals are easily damaged by heat. Commercial packs are spot welded together, which acts much faster, so doesn't transfer much heat into the cell.

Regards,
Graeme
I was talking to my local Jaycar store person in Aust and was told that they sell 2 types of Eneloop ones manufactured in Japan and ones manufactured in China. From memory black = Japan and white = china there is also a noticeable price difference.
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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by GTB » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:33 am

GAP wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:05 pm I was talking to my local Jaycar store person in Aust and was told that they sell 2 types of Eneloop ones manufactured in Japan and ones manufactured in China. From memory black = Japan and white = china there is also a noticeable price difference.
That was also my understanding, but the white label Eneloops I bought early this year are labelled 'Made in Japan'. I think I've read somewhere Panasonic now have them made in Japan by Fujitsu, who bought the old Sanyo factory.

I've never used the black 'Eneloop Pro' type, although they have a higher current rating, the trade-off is a higher cost and a lower number of charging cycles.

Graeme

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by philipy » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:23 am

I have four black Eneloops which I bought in 2020 so are a couple of years old. I originally intended to use them in the little 3D printed diesel project, but being button topped they didn't really fit ( they were just a fraction too long even with a custom made battery box). They've been sitting on the shelf for a couple of years without being recharged and only used now and then when I needed a quick source of approx 5v to test something. I just checked and they are still showing 1.2v each!
They say "Made in Japan" on the side.
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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Tingewickmax » Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:58 am

With regards to giving a dead NiMH pack a "jolt" to bring them back to life, in my case a loco I forgot to "switch off" 6 months prior to discovery - Advice from someone who should know, Brian Jones. Find a 1 amp 12 v power supply, in my case an old Scalextric transformer. Attach to battery pack, in my case 12 cell AA, NiMH, 2,400 mah that would not take a charge, for 30 seconds (for this battery pack capacity) Bingo ! The battery pack would now take a full charge from my smart charger. 5 years later, still going like a train. Nothing to loose if the trick does not work. Max

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Jimmyb » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:44 am

Tingewickmax wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:58 am Nothing to loose if the trick does not work. Max
You think not, and if they explode, because something goes wrong, you will pay the compensation.

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Re: Battery charging issues

Post by Tingewickmax » Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:08 am

Jimmyb wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:44 am
Tingewickmax wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:58 am Nothing to loose if the trick does not work. Max
You think not, and if they explode, because something goes wrong, you will pay the compensation.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying Jimmy. The advice came from here - https://www.brianjonesmodels.co.uk/ I can't see a maximum of 1 amp/12v for 30 seconds on a 12 cell pack will cause it to explode. I once accidentally hooked up a smart charger to a TX that I mistakenly thought had NiMH batteries in (some of my TX's do, some don't. That'll teach me not to check) .They were not, they were good old Duracells ! 2 hours later - some warm gooey batteries and the need for a clean up. Now if we are talking Lithium tech batteries then no way. But if you do not think it is worth the risk, it's an "if all else fails option", with NiMH's then fair enough. Max

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