Where do you start?

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SpudUk
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Where do you start?

Post by SpudUk » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:52 pm

As I sit here in my office looking out over the virgin garden of pure turf I think to myself...how on earth do you start building a garden railway!? All I know is I don't want to build it on stakes but more "blended" with the garden, but I don't really know what that means in practice. I'm thinking breeze blocks/concrete blocks, but how do you fix the track and ensure smooth curves?

Where did you all start?
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TonyW
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Re: Where do you start?

Post by TonyW » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:52 pm

A tape measure, somebody to hold the other end, a pencil and notepad, all used to make an accurate and scale drawing of the garden as it is now. Then I marked on the things that need to stay where they are, such as paths. That gave me the blank canvas to work out how the railway would fit. And then hours and hours poring over it to work out a track plan, access points, special features such as a removable bridge over a path.

Once I had that it was out in the garden with a long spirit level, an even longer bit of wood and some survey pegs to work out where cuttings and embankments would go.

Civil engineering followed. Concrete, blocks, stone, bricks, etc.

Rule number one: Unless you like spending money and are happy to replace it often, wood has no place in or on a garden railway.

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by tom_tom_go » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:32 pm

Hi Chris,

Sketching is a good start but there is software now that can ensure that curved sections are going to fit where you want and at the right radius:

www.anyrail.com

I agree with Tony regarding the use of wood if it's going to be in contact with the ground that get's wet regularly, however, a shelf railway raised with good air flow will be fine.

Check out Rik's blog which has loads of information on starting a garden railway:

www.riksrailway.blogspot.com

Feel free to fire away with questions as well so you can learn from other members experiences and mistakes!

Tom

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:00 pm

Hi Chris,
now you are within reasonable distance of our Local Area Group in West Wales I will repeat my invitation for you to visit some of our members' garden railways to see the variety of options put into practise.
We have railways raised on timber platforms, laid directly onto raised solid foundations and laid at ground level. There should be enough choice and experience to help you decide what is best for your location as no two are the same.
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by TonyW » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:26 pm

As regards the use of wood, I'll stick by my Rule Number One: It has no place under any circumstances.

This page (http://www.nwwales.16mm.org.uk/abercanyon-railroad.html) shows what has happened to a friend's railway after less than ten years service. He paid a small fortune for all that weather-proof, rot-proof, boil-proof, Wales-proof wood. He's now paying another small fortune to do it again properly.

Perhaps Rule Number Two should be: Only do the job once.

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by tom_tom_go » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:40 pm

I should of said that the wood used on my railway is covered with roofing felt and then layers of gravel :thumbup:

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by BertieB » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:50 am

My first effort involved treated wood support and lined trenches filled with rubble and topped with stone chipping ballast holding the floating track in place - just like the real thing! And pleasingly integrated in to the layout of the garden, I thought. In significantly less than 10 years though, the wood had rotted, the trenches had spread or collapsed and the chippings spread across the garden or disappeared under inches of top soil.

I did it again using largely recycled plastic boards and posts. It wasn't as cheap as I would have liked but was easy to build and has stayed in place. I rather regret not looking at concrete blocks and 'landscaping' it more carefully, however.

Obviously everyone's enthusiasms and objectives vary but I would strongly suggest planning it on the basis of using the largest radius curves you can possibly accommodate. I compromised a bit here and there to fit it in (it's a small garden) which, with the rolling stock I use, hasn't helped.

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by angr607 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:01 pm

My first line was on wooden shelves. They lasted 5 years (without any treatment what so ever) before they were finally replaced with gravel laid on a weed-proof membrane in the garden. Both have their plus and negatives but not having to worry about the track staying level is a bonus on mark 2 I suppose........

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by IrishPeter » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:11 pm

Soft wood is a non-starter in a wet environment, especially now the Nanny State has banned us ordinary Joes from using creosote. Hard woods are fantastically expensive. Almost all modern timber is from fast growing species, and kiln dried, so it is relative weak structurally (not a problem), warps like an SOB (big problem), sucks up moisture, and rots after 7 to 10 years. The rot problem seems to be worsened when felt is used, as if the felt is holed and water penetrates you create a permanently wet environment which leads to rapid deterioration of the wood beneath. BTW, when I compare the rings per inch off the pine in the house (built 1890-95-ish) and modern timber, the ring count per inch for modern pine is about half that of 125 years ago. In short, modern timber is junk for outdoor use.

My first line was at ground level which was OK when I was 40, less so when I was 47. The method was shallow trench, weed membrane in the bottom, then compacted chippings up to about an inch below ground level, then a loose layer to bed the track into, lay track taking care that sleeper level was about ground level, then a top dressing of ballast which was then tamped. Some folks will leave out the weed barrier, and really ram down the foundation layer. I tried a short section built that way, and it did not seem to make a difference, but I was living in Arizona (a.k.a. arid-zone-a) at the time. Looks realistic, but it does require regular maintenance like the real thing, and works best with brass rail, which is relatively heavy. I used to ballast with a mix of decomposed granite and chippings as this would tend to stick together.

I think railway 3.0 is going to be slightly raised to save the back, so I am thinking of raising the line about one block high - 8 inches - and thanks to the slope on our property, steaming area and sidings will then be about table top height. I seem to think most folks get very intimate with a masonry bit when laying track on blocks, then you screw the track down.

The conventional wisdom on gradients is don't have them, or no more than 1:100 (1%). I have never had the option of building a flat railway, so the Gospel according to me is avoid an up-and-down gradient profile, and also anything steeper than 1 in 50 (2%) unless you really get stuck in which case 1:33.3 (3%) can be tolerated. A manually controlled loco will happily blast away uphill, or roll gently downhill with the regulator just off the face, but they will not take kindly to uphill and down dale running.

The conventional wisdom on curves is - as wide a radius as possible in the space. I have had some difficult locations to play in, and learnt the hard way that anything less than 36" (914mm) is a nuisance. This would be roughly the SM32 scale equivalent of the minimum radius on Darjeeling and Himalayan Railway, but it basically limits you to 4 coupled locomotives, and a few short wheelbase six coupled locomotives such as Roundhouse's 'Lady Anne.' Chopper couplings do not like really tight curves, say anything under 4', even with one hook removed. If you are going for minimum radius short stock, and buffer/bumper and chain couplings will cause you less grief in the long run.

If I think of anything else, I will add it.

Happy planning!
Peter in Virginia
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Andrew
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Re: Where do you start?

Post by Andrew » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:37 pm

Hello!

I've been pondering this one...

I think the first step is to talk to your wife, to make sure she really does know what you're planning to do, and roughly what it might look like. I appear not to have followed this advice - my wife tells me she was utterly astonished when I started lugging home bags of cement (that is what the rack under a pram's for, right?) and pouring them into trenches in the garden. I thought Id told her, but clearly I'd not quite spelled it out enough and I don't think I've ever quite regained her trust where the railway's concerned!

Next is to think about what sort of railway you want to make - to me, the best garden lines have a real character, and I think that comes about either because the creator has a strong internal sense of what they want to create, or because they've thought it through very carefully - even if individual aspects of their plans change all the time! Is it a Welsh slate line, a modern tourist one, an English common carrier, an industrial line? There's nothing wrong with shiny out-of the-box engines circling your double-track mainline with a rake of ready-to-run Accucraft carriages - but if you actually had your heart set on recreating a run-down Irish tramway in the 1920s then it'll always feel like something's missing...

I think Tony's advice re working out the topography is very good - where will the cuttings be, and the embankments - a bridge or short tunnel maybe? If you're good at visualising stuff, how will your proposed line look through a camera lense - and are you happy with it? Does the landscaping fit your theme?

Be honest with yourself about how much space it will all take up - a passing loop for even moderate length trains is pretty long, and it's easy to think "I'll get away with it" only to find everything's horribly cramped or that a vital set of points is stuck behind a bush. Yep, that's another one I found out the hard way...

Imagine running some trains over your proposed trackplan - does it work? If you've planned loads of sidings the chances are you'll very rarely need them all (shunting takes too long to do too much of it, and the neighbours look at you very strangely), but if you've only got a bare minimum you might find yourself rather short. Where will the carriages go while the battery engine trundles a goods around the line and you re-fuel the steamer? And when the battery engine returns will it get in the way of those wagons you want to add to the back of the carriages to form a mixed train?

And if you can possibly run a siding or two into the shed or garage, I reckon you're far more likely to get out there and run trains than if you have to take a train in and out each time...

Re construction methods I'm probably not the best person to ask, but my personal preference is for something good and solid. The most recent trackbed I've laid involves concrete blocks set into a shallow trench with Postfix or similar, and I think i'd do the same again, it's quick, easy and very solid. Like you, I've built lines whilst having young children to contend with, and progress was sometimes very slow - I think both lines at the current address took a couple of years before the trackbed was completed. That was OK, but I think if I were to do it again I'd try to negotiate a little time and money to try and do the whole job in a week or weekend - both time and money can be in short supply with a young family, I know, but it'd get it running quicker and mean the garden's tidy again more quickly too, both of which are a good thing, for you and your offspring. I never did play trains with my kids quite as much as I'd have liked, and they're too old to be interested now...

Good luck with it all,

Andrew

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by tom_tom_go » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:50 pm

Agree with Andrew regarding wife or whoever you live with. Make sure they understand fully what you are planning to do to avoid planning permission being rejected halfway through your build!

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by philipy » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:06 pm

I agree with Tom and Andrew. It took me quite a few years to get Outline Planning permission from SWMBO and then it came in the form of, "You can do what you like as long as it doesn't spoil the garden" - guess who decides the definition of 'spoil' , which has to be renegotiated each time I want to do something?!
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Re: Where do you start?

Post by tom_tom_go » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:16 pm

I ended up pulling up 50% of my line and even now she wants it all gone.

In her defence though our garden is too small for a proper railway so she is looking at it from when we come to sell it looks presentable to prospective buyers.

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by TonyW » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:32 pm

Andrew wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:37 pmAnd if you can possibly run a siding or two into the shed or garage, I reckon you're far more likely to get out there and run trains than if you have to take a train in and out each time...
An excellent point. I have instant access to eight bogie wagons or equivalent and it plays a major part in the "Shall I run some trains this evening?" decision on those warm summer days. I just need a loco to pull it.

Andrew also makes a good point about points. They are invariably longer than you think and so take up a lot of space. When planning your layout make sure you have one (or a template) to hand, otherwise they won't fit in the available space. Been there...

I saw my friend Mike yesterday whose line appeared in the link I posted above. The conversation went something like this:
Me: I used those pictures of your rotting wood work this week to show people what a poor product choice it is.
Mike: Aaaaggghhhh!!! No, no, no. Not wood. Anything but wood! Do you know how much money I've wasted on wood..?

This was followed by a full five-minute rant on wood's shortcomings, and then another five minutes on how great his new concrete post with plastic decking replacement is.

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by SpudUk » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:24 am

Andrew wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:37 pm Hello!

I've been pondering this one...

I think the first step is to talk to your wife, to make sure she really does know what you're planning to do, and roughly what it might look like. I appear not to have followed this advice - my wife tells me she was utterly astonished when I started lugging home bags of cement (that is what the rack under a pram's for, right?) and pouring them into trenches in the garden. I thought Id told her, but clearly I'd not quite spelled it out enough and I don't think I've ever quite regained her trust where the railway's concerned!

Next is to think about what sort of railway you want to make - to me, the best garden lines have a real character, and I think that comes about either because the creator has a strong internal sense of what they want to create, or because they've thought it through very carefully - even if individual aspects of their plans change all the time! Is it a Welsh slate line, a modern tourist one, an English common carrier, an industrial line? There's nothing wrong with shiny out-of the-box engines circling your double-track mainline with a rake of ready-to-run Accucraft carriages - but if you actually had your heart set on recreating a run-down Irish tramway in the 1920s then it'll always feel like something's missing...

I think Tony's advice re working out the topography is very good - where will the cuttings be, and the embankments - a bridge or short tunnel maybe? If you're good at visualising stuff, how will your proposed line look through a camera lense - and are you happy with it? Does the landscaping fit your theme?

Be honest with yourself about how much space it will all take up - a passing loop for even moderate length trains is pretty long, and it's easy to think "I'll get away with it" only to find everything's horribly cramped or that a vital set of points is stuck behind a bush. Yep, that's another one I found out the hard way...

Imagine running some trains over your proposed trackplan - does it work? If you've planned loads of sidings the chances are you'll very rarely need them all (shunting takes too long to do too much of it, and the neighbours look at you very strangely), but if you've only got a bare minimum you might find yourself rather short. Where will the carriages go while the battery engine trundles a goods around the line and you re-fuel the steamer? And when the battery engine returns will it get in the way of those wagons you want to add to the back of the carriages to form a mixed train?

And if you can possibly run a siding or two into the shed or garage, I reckon you're far more likely to get out there and run trains than if you have to take a train in and out each time...

Re construction methods I'm probably not the best person to ask, but my personal preference is for something good and solid. The most recent trackbed I've laid involves concrete blocks set into a shallow trench with Postfix or similar, and I think i'd do the same again, it's quick, easy and very solid. Like you, I've built lines whilst having young children to contend with, and progress was sometimes very slow - I think both lines at the current address took a couple of years before the trackbed was completed. That was OK, but I think if I were to do it again I'd try to negotiate a little time and money to try and do the whole job in a week or weekend - both time and money can be in short supply with a young family, I know, but it'd get it running quicker and mean the garden's tidy again more quickly too, both of which are a good thing, for you and your offspring. I never did play trains with my kids quite as much as I'd have liked, and they're too old to be interested now...

Good luck with it all,

Andrew
This is all really useful, thank you Andrew. I'm leaning toward the concrete block method and can use that with relatively ease on the part of the railway that will be at close to ground level.

With regard to atmosphere, that's a really useful thought. I've spent my spare time writing a 5 page history of the fictional Welsh county in which the railway exists, which has organically then developed a geology for the railway which I'll factor in. It's going to have a north Wales vibe, but be set in a fictional county in south Wales.
TonyW wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:32 pm
Andrew wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:37 pmAnd if you can possibly run a siding or two into the shed or garage, I reckon you're far more likely to get out there and run trains than if you have to take a train in and out each time...
An excellent point. I have instant access to eight bogie wagons or equivalent and it plays a major part in the "Shall I run some trains this evening?" decision on those warm summer days. I just need a loco to pull it
The plan is to put a shed behind our garage (the garage is being converted into an office or I would have used that) to function as one of the termini and stock storage area
TonyW wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:32 pm I saw my friend Mike yesterday whose line appeared in the link I posted above. The conversation went something like this:
Me: I used those pictures of your rotting wood work this week to show people what a poor product choice it is.
Mike: Aaaaggghhhh!!! No, no, no. Not wood. Anything but wood! Do you know how much money I've wasted on wood..?

This was followed by a full five-minute rant on wood's shortcomings, and then another five minutes on how great his new concrete post with plastic decking replacement is.
You can tell Mike I have formally taken the advice and shall avoid would at all costs! That was some grade-A rotting!
Chris Auckland

SpudUk
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Re: Where do you start?

Post by SpudUk » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:25 am

I should mention I am making an large number of concessions in other areas to gain approval from my good lady, think I'm winning that battle slowly!
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Re: Where do you start?

Post by Andrew » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:19 pm

SpudUk wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:24 am
The plan is to put a shed behind our garage (the garage is being converted into an office or I would have used that) to function as one of the termini and stock storage area


Perfect!

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by Big Jim » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:52 am

With regard to atmosphere, that's a really useful thought. I've spent my spare time writing a 5 page history of the fictional Welsh county in which the railway exists, which has organically then developed a geology for the railway which I'll factor in. It's going to have a north Wales vibe, but be set in a fictional county in south Wales.
Great, another South Wales inspired NG line :D


IMHO you are bang on the money with this, I have been a great fan of 'armchair modelling' for years. I have planned many, many fictional lines in various gauges and while several have been started, none have ever got finished. This is normally due to house moves or colossal domestic changes (The last 7mm NG layout had to be abandoned when the room that it was going in was required for use by (then) unborn Son and Heir).

While the PMR is completely fictional and very silly, I did have various ideas in mind for the shape and organisation of the railway. Why was it built where it was, what would the traffic have been and would it actually have worked in real life, etc? Due to the fact that it has yet to be built the sillyness level has increased to something approaching biblical proportions.

Before we moved from the original location of the railway a few years ago, I had planned the line to fit into the garden in the best way possible that used the least amount of effort. As the garden was on a slope, I planned it with lots of raised sections and lots of cuttings. By nature, I am incredibly lazy, so the least amount of effort needed was the way to go. I could have flattened large bits of the garden, but I felt that fitting the railway to the landscape, rather than the landscape to the railway was a better option.

A friend of mine, who models in N gauge and has a fair amount of room, always decides on the landscape and topography he wants before he designs the railway infrastructure.
If at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer!

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Re: Where do you start?

Post by IrishPeter » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:24 pm

Being a favourer of ground level construction I have in the past followed the contours of the yard where I have been building my railway. The plot out last house was built on was parallel to the slope of the hill, so that worked very well for an end to end set up. This house is on a plot that runs down slope at right angles to the hill, so in engineering terms it is a challenge. This time there will be a certain amount of railway on stilts due to the slope, but 'The Yarn' is being written to incorporate it somehow under the scenic license, and engineering necessity clause of the Garden Railways Regulations. i.e. It comes under Rule 3 - it's my railway, and I can do what I like. I do know I am in for 3% grades, and some 3' radius curves on this one, so I am planning according leaning heavily towards short rolling stock and battery-electric 'diesel' locos, rather than steam.

On the engineering side I can never make my mind up whether it is better to have wider radius curves and not compensate the gradient for the curve, or have tighter radii and compensate. However, one thing is sure, tight radii, and steep gradients do have an effect on loco and rolling stock maintenance regimes. I have a 'Millie' that needs some attention after years of slogging up the 2% and 3.5% gradients of the old Skebawn and Castleknox. She has some very oval holes in her drive rods.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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