Gradients in 16mm?

[pandsrowe]

I'm thinking about a possible future project on my garden railway to allow trains to descend from my raised track down to ground level and back up again, part of a project to do away with the lawn and all the attendant problems that go with it, as I'm not getting any younger. I think that some of you will know what I mean. I'm at this moment just trying to establish what is considered to be a reasonable/realistic gradient for 16mm steam and battery electric locos. Having spent the last six or seven years constructing and maintaining a near as possible level line this does seem a little bit alien to me, but it would open up a whole new world of possible extended running, maybe even double track. Well I can dream can't I?
I'm wondering if any of the members here run up and down gradients and what are the pitfalls that I should be looking out for. I realise that I will have to "drive" my locos but as all of mine are r/c I don't see that as presenting much of an issue. I am looking at the trains descending and climbing around 500mm in a distance of about 10 or 11 metres but there would be some curvature required in that length.
As always your thoughts and comments would be much appreciated.

[invicta280]

That is possibly quite steep I would think at 1:20 ish.
This railway was apparently built to 1:48 https://youtu.be/qP3hrp7i8wQ

[Peter Butler]

That is possibly quite steep I would think at 1:20 ish.
This railway was apparently built to 1:48 https://youtu.be/qP3hrp7i8wQ

I have visited that railway (and a most charming couple they are too!) but at first glance you would expect to see a ski slope, certainly not a garden railway. The incline, even at 1:48 is alarming to say the least, but it works with a lot of meandering on the way.

[gregh]

I don't run live steam, but my battery powered trains climb my 1:25 OK.

Here's a couple of video links showing visiting live steamers climbing the 1:25.
The first one is Terry's (Mr slo-mo himself). Terry likes running VERY slowly.
https://youtu.be/M4C0yLB3R-M?t=181

and this one is a less modified Billy.
https://youtu.be/F4K2nvumwp4?t=179

You can see the load they manage. Both are RC and have slo-mo fitted.

[Dwayne]

Another option (though not ideal in the day dream)... forego the grade and simply build a second railway at ground level.

[TonyW]

Going uphill is not the problem. Remember, unlike full-size our little trains don'the (usually) have brakes.

[gregh]

Going uphill is not the problem. Remember, unlike full-size our little trains don'the (usually) have brakes.

Here's my chance to learn something about live steam.
I would have thought that if you shut off steam to the cylinders, then that would be a sort of brake.
And if not, then couldn't you change the reversing gear?
I certainly never noticed the visiting steamers running away down my grades. (but I took no notice of what the operators were doing.)

[Andrew]

Going uphill is not the problem. Remember, unlike full-size our little trains don'the (usually) have brakes.

Interestingly, I find it I'm more likely to keep the speed down going downhill on my short-ish line - I think it's because I'm tempted to charge at the gradients going up! I've got 1 in 50 gradients, and really like the way the engines work hard in one direction and drift back down in the other, just as they do on a lot of real NG lines. Run-round loops restrict my train lengths to three long WHR bogie carriages, which my RH Russell copes with just fine, even on the reverse curve. My Accucraft Baldwin slips on oily rails (or damp vegetation), which probably isn't very good for it, so I restrict that to two carriages unless conditions are right.

I don't think I'd want to do as steep as 1:20 as part of the mainline, but might consider it if it were just an occasionally-used link line, used with care by the right locos and appropriate length/weight trains...

Happy planning,

Andrew.

[tom_tom_go]

If you have any kind of inertia device then gradients are not a problem in my experience. The thing with live steam in this scale is the locos have loads of power but no weight.

[IanC]

Going uphill is not the problem. Remember, unlike full-size our little trains don'the (usually) have brakes.

Here's my chance to learn something about live steam.
I would have thought that if you shut off steam to the cylinders, then that would be a sort of brake.
And if not, then couldn't you change the reversing gear?
I certainly never noticed the visiting steamers running away down my grades. (but I took no notice of what the operators were doing.)

Up to a point I would imagine shutting off will act as a brake. However gravity and the weight of the train will push the train down a grade.

Ian

[TonyW]

The thing with live steam in this scale is the locos have loads of power but no weight.

I shall remember that next time I'm lugging a Garratt around... ;-)

In most cases steam locos have little rolling resistance and loads of lubrication, so they roll very easily. There is no compression in the cylinders when steam is shut off because the exhaust is open to atmosphere. You could try a bit of reverse gear (if the loco has that capability) but it is more likely to come to a jerky stop than anything else.

[pandsrowe]

Well based on the general consensus I'm beginning to think that maybe this is not quite such a good idea, although I will not discount it completely. It is at the moment no more than a pipe dream based on doing away with my lawn to make my life easier and anyway at the moment there is no lawn only yellow coloured straw due to no rain here for two months.
Also I really should turn my attention to finishing several other projects before embarking on anything else.

[philipy]

Phil,
A small experiment might help you to decide. A couple of 2.4M decking boards joined end to end and temporarily pin half a dozen lengths of track to them, then progressively raise one end and see how your loco/train copes. It won't be definitive but would give you a clue as to what is likely to be achievable without committing to major expenditure of either time, effort, or cash.

[Peter Butler]

Sound advice and useful information for others......

[bazzer42]

I managed to minimise the gradient by looping arounda large rhododendron to the lower level. I may have been fortunate with the location but at 1 in 40 trains are coping with an 8 foot diameter curve.

[GTB]

Well based on the general consensus I'm beginning to think that maybe this is not quite such a good idea, although I will not discount it completely.

The major concern is the very steep grade. If you can work out how to get it down to 1:50, it becomes a feasible proposition.

If the space you have available mandates a 1:20 grade between levels, then you could treat it as an operational feature, rather than a problem.

Battery powered locos aren't particularly affected by steep grades, so one with suitably low gearing and sufficient weight could be stationed on the incline in an operation where the train loco is assisted up and down the incline by a battery loco acting as a banker. Maybe with a couple of momentum wagons disguised as brake vans added to the train as well to help control the descent.

If you dislike battery powered steam locos, then a couple of heavy battery powered diesels with suitable low gearing could be used to control descents and assist climbing the grade as well.

While geared steam locos could also be used as bankers on the steeply graded section to keep things under control, keeping more than one loco in steam when running on your own is not really a practical proposition.

Regards,
Graeme

[pandsrowe]

I think that I really should carry out some experimenting if only to see what is viable with my locos and rolling stock, Philipy's suggestion of trying gradients using a couple of deck boards is brilliant as I have some 3 - 4 metre lengths of old facia boards hoarded as they "May come in handy one day". As I mentioned earlier, I really must finish some of my other projects first before I embark on anything new, so it may be sometime before I am in any position to decide if this idea is viable.