Long distance point control

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pandsrowe
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Long distance point control

Post by pandsrowe » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:30 pm

Hi all,

Has any one attempted ro remotely control a set of points mechanically at a distance of around 4 - 5 metres?
I'm thinking of some future extension to my garden line and one set of points will be in a difficult access position. In addition it will be based around a terminus so remotely controlling all the points from a single position would be nice, although all these other sets of points would all be probably within around 1 metre of the ground frame so quite easy. I've ruled out electric and air operation as having potential long-term reliability issues and also getting the air or electric to the location is really too much of a problem.
I've been looking at the wire in a tube systems that the smaller gauge modellers use but I can't find any materials commonly available that will be long enough and I'm not sure whether it would work over that distance anyway. Another idea is to use Bowden cable as this can be obtained in very long coils and cut to length, however I believe that this is only intended to be used in tension e.g. bicycle brakes and i don't know whether it would work on the push stroke, maybe using a spring to return the point blades might work.
Any experiences or thoughts on this would be very welcome.
Phil

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Peter Butler » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:02 pm

I have two types of distant point control in use and I am very satisfied with both....
One is a stiff wire running through screw eyes, surface mounted and in a straight line alongside the track. This is controlled by a point lever which operates a crank. It is at least four metres long and works perfectly. My only criticism is that it will not allow a train to trail through if the point is set against it....
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The second is operated by a Bowden cable, (bicycle brake cable) and is buried underneath my baseboard and gently curves several times to reach the point 2.3 metres away. At one end I have a push/pull knob (no lever) which will easily push against the blades. Also, a train can trail through the point if set against it.
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Both work well and I'm quite sure an even longer cable would perform the task. No additional springs have been fitted to either.
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by jim@NAL » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:52 pm

very clever idea peter. the only other way I could think of would be using rc car servos you can buy these very cheap now but then you would have to have a battery etc .cables /tubes etc look more reliable

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Peter Butler » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:19 pm

Jim, I did originally fit servos (as described somewhere in my thread) but quickly came to the conclusion they were unsuited to outdoor use and operation, so were removed and a more reliable mechanical solution installed.
For this situation which 'pandsrowe' describes, he has no mains power to supply transformers or compressors, so mechanical alternatives are the only way.
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by pandsrowe » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:49 am

Jim, Thanks for your very informative reply, two possible methods for me to consider - spoilt for choice as I could incorporate either (or both) into my proposed ground frame that I intend to make.
One further question, did you make any provision for lubrication of the Bowden cable during its life or did you just coat it with grease or similar?
Phil

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:11 am

Phil, I did pour oil down the tube before fitting but the cable is designed for outdoor use on bicycles so should be able to remain good if used regularly.
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by -steves- » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:58 am

Peter Butler wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:11 am Phil, I did pour oil down the tube before fitting but the cable is designed for outdoor use on bicycles so should be able to remain good if used regularly.
The only difference is on a bike cable, the cable is never pointing upwards to allow water to run in and settle in the bottom of the cable in a dip, a good chance the cable itself will rust and expand and make the cable tight (or solid) at some point in the future, no idea how long it would be until that happens though. I am a bit of a bike fanatic too and seen this happen a few times when the handlebar side has been lose and water runs down inside it, more on back ones where it can't run out again.

Could you build a little "hut" type thing over the top where the cables enter/ exit to stop water running in? Just food for thought ;)

Personally I love both ideas and think these are brilliant ways of doing it, though my points are all electric operated and I intend to wire all mine up and have them done on switches. Just the time to get around to doing it as per usual! :(
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Soar Valley Light » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:21 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:02 pm
One is a stiff wire running through screw eyes, surface mounted and in a straight line alongside the track. This is controlled by a point lever which operates a crank. It is at least four metres long and works perfectly.
Hi Peter,

Where do you source your stiff wire from? It looks a very durable and robust solution. Does temperature affect it's operation at all, being exposed I imagine it must be quite prone to thermal expansion (and contraction!)

Andrew
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:24 pm

Andrew, the 'stiff wire' was my simplistic way of describing the system.... it is a series of brass rod sections soldered together with tube joints. There might be some steel in the system too but I can't remember in detail... my age you know!
As far as expansion is concerned, there hasn't been a problem at all. You can see an omega loop at the crank end so if any movement occurred that should accommodate it.
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Big Jim » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:13 pm

Regarding the lubrication of bowden cables you can get little devices for lubricating them. Similar to a grease gun, you can use oil or grease.
Another option would be to squirted wd40 down them until it come out the other end.
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Soar Valley Light » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:07 pm

Thanks Peter,

That makes perfect sense. More food for thought when the time comes!

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Peter Butler » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:26 pm

As usual, your comments have given me food for thought and any concern about water ingress into the cable became a worry. A quick and simple fix is the order of the day, so all I have done is attach a piece of plastic tube to make a top hat which drops below the level of the open cable.
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Simples!!!
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Robert Hammond » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:18 pm

You have probably sorted it now, but I have used the wire - in - tube method for the distance you quote and on a continuous curve. I used small copper tubing bought in reels, similar in size to tubing for hydraulic brakes but must not be used for brakes. I seem to remember buying it from RS. I also bought a few reels of different diameter stainless steel wire and pushed the wire, with engine oil, through tube. The tube is clamped along its length to the concrete track base. A lever from Tenmill is connected to one end and a bell crank or other to the other end. It involved a great deal of experimenting to get all the cranks and levers to provide sufficient throw, but now all my points and signals use this system and work well, including my homemade scissor crossover operated by a single lever.

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by sjrixon » Sat May 02, 2020 8:52 am

Dragging up an old thread, but that's the joy of forums :)

Has anyone used the Tenmille system to connect a level to a Peco point? I'm considering adding a point that would be more out of reach than would be ideal, so wondering about a level, rodding, and crank to control it. Outside, almost straight. I did look at the brake cable option, but I don't really have a way to bury it, also I feel a real lever would be nice to operate the points.

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by tom_tom_go » Sat May 02, 2020 9:12 am

You could also use R/C and a servo to operate the point.

There are threads on the forum about how to go about it.

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by sjrixon » Sat May 02, 2020 9:18 am

Not really looking to do electrics in the garden.. It's not that far away :)

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Peter Butler » Sat May 02, 2020 10:14 am

sjrixon wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 8:52 am Dragging up an old thread, but that's the joy of forums :)

Has anyone used the Tenmille system to connect a level to a Peco point?
I believe the lever shown in my description at the top of the previous page is a Tenmille point lever (I may be wrong) and it operates a Peco SM32 sprung point via a crank and Omega loop. It works well.
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Re: Long distance point control

Post by tom_tom_go » Sat May 02, 2020 10:24 am

sjrixon wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:18 am Not really looking to do electrics in the garden.. It's not that far away :)
Use a stick then :)

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Soar Valley Light » Sat May 02, 2020 6:27 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 10:14 am I believe the lever shown in my description at the top of the previous page is a Tenmille point lever (I may be wrong) and it operates a Peco SM32 sprung point via a crank and Omega loop. It works well.
Peter,

Do you think the Tenmille point lever would drive the points through a Bowden cable?

All the best,

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Re: Long distance point control

Post by Peter Butler » Sat May 02, 2020 7:30 pm

Soar Valley Light wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 6:27 pm

Do you think the Tenmille point lever would drive the points through a Bowden cable?

All the best,

Andrew
Easily.... you would need to make a connection between the multi strand cable and the point slide-bar, but that can be worked out I'm sure. At the point end of the cable I used an electric cable crimp with a small hole to pass over the tie bar upstand (?).... see picture. Not sure the full throw of the lever would be required though, so stops to prevent full travel could be used.
The cable itself will push equally as well as pull.
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