Using SBR for fixing ballast

[laalratty]

Long time no post (well nearly) for me on here, but the last few weekends I have been reviving my Afonglas and Nant Llwyd Railway from a state of near dereliction. After removing all of the overgrowth and tidying up the plant life (3 afternoons work) I found three sections where the concrete trackbed had sunk or cracked to such an extent as to make relaying necessary. Together with the fact that a lot of the ballast has washed away, I've got a major re-ballasting operation upcoming. I've heard of using SBR (which is a additive for mortar and concrete, like a watery PVA type concoction) for fixing down ballast, and was wondering if anyone here had any advice for doing so? Application methods and equipment would be very useful. The ballast I'm using is grano dust, previously I've used this mixed in varying quantities with cement and set off with water from a spray bottle, but it only seems to last 2-3 years at most, and sometimes even less then that. All help would be appreciated. And as for the reason that I've started to show interest in my line again, well there should be more to tell sometime in May...

[Peter Butler]

I have personal experience of using both SBR and grano dust as ballast with a great deal of success. My entire trackwork has been finished in this way and has withstood a few winters and regular wet weather conditions here in West Wales with no sign of failure. I fear though, this is not the best time of year to be undertaking such a project as the whole area MUST be kept dry for several days to allow the SR to fully set, even then it will show signs of what appears to be dilution, but not to worry about discolouration, it will settle in time.



Step 1.... choose a warm, dry day.
Step 2.... apply dry ballast material where you would like it to be when set. Avoid touching when wet.
Step 3.... drip NEAT SBR from a container with spout (eg. old PVA bottle) onto ballast without disturbing it and soak it well. All material must be completely coated as it forms a skin when dry.
Step 4.... cover entire area with waterproof sheeting and allow to dry, several days at least and as long as you can for best results.

Even after drying/setting it can look blue if it gets wet but this will disappear after a while without affecting the bond. As you can see in the picture above, it works well and looks good too!
I hope you find this useful... it works for me.
Look on ebay for SBR, it can vary enormously in price but good deals are available including free postage. 5 ltrs should be less than £20.

[andymctractor]

I've not used SBR for track ballasting yet mainly because I keep putting off the job.  I'm hoping to make a goods start this year.  I'm confident that when I do, using SBR and granite chippings on top of mortared bricks, it will be a success.
See below is a shot of a piece of sm32 track screwed to a driveway block and ballasted using SBR and granite chippings.  This has been in my garden for a number of years now and would need a cold chisel to move the track.  

I have used SBR and pigeon grit to surface a number of platforms on my Crowfoot Light Railway.  (See www.crowfootlightrailway.webs.com especially the STATIONS page for photos of numerous uses of SBR for this purpose)
See below is a shot of the platform on Bramley Bank where jigstone platform edges border a shallow mortar infil and finished of with about 1/2" deep pigeon grit and SBR.  This platform and similar ones elsewhere can be walked on with confidence.

Best advice has to be to use it on a solid base such as mortared brickwork or stable concrete etc.
Don't use SBR unless you are sure your track is where you want it to stay.
Apply it like the small scale modellers apply PVA but don't worry about the washing up liquid.
Apply a small amount of SBR onto the base before placing the granite chippings.  Dampen the chippings and place them as required.
Apply SBR one drip at a time and watch the white liquid spread through your granite chippings. To help it along try misting some water onto the top of the chippings and SBR. In time the white liquid will change to almost clear but don't mist on too much water especially on non flat areas as the mix will flow downhill before it dries properly.

Good luck.

[laalratty]

Thanks very much Peter, I suspect that your climate in west Wales is very similar to mine in Lancashire, and I also suspect that the rainfall here is what has done in my ballast thus far.
I already have some SBR purchased from Wickes for £18.50 for a 5L container. I'm not in any real rush for putting it down, so will wait until we get a dry spell. I'm only at home for 2 days a week and so I would cover any ballasted track afterwards for at least 5 days after ballasting.

Thank you also Andy for your advice, I see that as ever with garden railways that your method is slightly different to Peter's! I may well try both.

[philipy]

I've only done a few smallsh areas, to fill defective patches and/or trackwork mods, but I found that applying it from a spray bottle works quite well and doesn't cause the clumping that dripping on to dry ballast can do. Afine spray and go over 2 or three times to ensure penetration. Finally just rub over the railheads with dry kitchen roll before it dries, for obvious reasons!

[andymctractor]

Thank you also Andy for your advice, I see that as ever with garden railways that your method is slightly different to Peter's! I may well try both.

I agree wholeheartedly with Peter about waiting for a dry period to do this but once it is properly dry it will hold on like the proverbial to a shovel.

[Joe]

Does anyone have any links for appropriate ballast for this? i have a tub of SBR for the intended purpose of ballasting but as of yet have not got round to sourcing ballast material.
cheers
Joe

[laalratty]

Look in builders merchants for grano dust or something similar, it is granite sized from around 5mm to dust.

[Soar Valley Light]

See below is a shot of a piece of sm32 track screwed to a driveway block and ballasted using SBR and granite chippings.

Andy,

Those chippings look a very good scale size, are they commercially available or do you have enormous patience with a lump hammer and sieve?

Andrew

[philipy]

For ballast I use granite from here:
http://resinbondedaggregates.com/produc ... esin-bound

Although it is called "green" it is the normal greenish grey colour that most ballast seems to come in.
Look around the site, they do a huge range of types and sizes.

This shows it newly laid and fixed with SBR last summer:

[andymctractor]

Those chippings look a very good scale size, are they commercially available or do you have enormous patience with a lump hammer and sieve?
Andrew

Some time ago I bought a couple of large bags from a garden railway supplier that is no longer in business. I have seen similar on retailers websites but I can't vouch for their scale appearance. I think postage could be a problem.
I will probably need more than I presently have, once I get round to using some so I will keep my eye on this thread.
Note that the platform at Bramley Bank used pidgeon grit which is much finer and a different colour but is widely available from pet and animal food suppliers.

Good luck

[Peter Butler]

We all make mistakes, practically everything I know was learned that way! On this subject my first was to use horticultural grit which, despite being sieved, was too large for the SBR to bond and, following a winter and the following wet season.... It all fell apart.
The next fail was to have a thick layer of material and too little SBR to penetrate to the bottom causing it to separate and break up.
At last I managed to get it right by keeping the fine ballast to a minimum, soaking well with neat SBR and protecting it from wet weather for as long as possible. Success!!!
This shows the horticultural grit...



Final solution as described above...





Between the tracks I use pigeon/chicken grit (crushed sea shell) which makes a good rough ground effect, also stuck down with SBR in the same way. This material is also perfect for a particular type of building style, known as brick and flint, for its reflective properties. It gives the impression of sharp edged flint and has great colour similarities.



The best way is to have a go yourself and find something you are happy with..... there is no perfect solution.

[Soar Valley Light]

Thanks for more inspirational pictures Peter - and not just with regard to track ballast! The middle picture is full of atmosphere.

Andrew

[LNR]

I agree with Andrew, and I've looked at that saddle tank in the third pic. more than once too!
Grant.

[laalratty]

Well today I've ballasted a little trial area in the steaming bay at Afallen, using recycled old ballast recovered from previous track work and crushed back to size. I applied the SBR using Peter's method, and after doing this in the morning, when I went out to check it around an hour and a half ago it had already pretty much set hard. I covered it over with plastic sheeting as the forecast that had just been on the TV was predicting imminent rain and sure enough it is raining now....! I'll see what its like when I'm next back here in a couple of weeks.

[Peter Butler]

Well done on making a start and being careful to protect it against wet weather.... Summer aint here yet!
Two weeks will be sufficient to prove the system you have followed. Please let us know the final result.

[laalratty]

Well I've been (very) slowly working away on re-ballasting the Afonglas and Nant Llwyd Railway and true to form I've found my own method for ballasting. I lay down the grano dust ballast completely dry, but then spray it with a water and PVA mixture (plus a drop of washing up liquid). After this, I then drop on the SBR using a large syringe with a length of tube on the end. The dampening first means that the SBR spreads into the ballast much more quickly then it does straight onto dry ballast. I must admit I am quite generous with the SBR, as it seems to dry really quite quickly, especially if done on a warm, sunny day. I then cover it over, although whenever I've given new ballast an exploratory prod after a few hours, it always seems to have been set hard already.
Anyhow, the upper balloon loop has now been about 2/3rds done, and all of the new ballast has stayed exactly where I put it, a vast improvement. And going back to the start of the thread and the reason for the revival of my railway........ well it arrives on Wednesday (but work means I won't get to show all until Sunday at the earliest).

[Peter Butler]

A variation of the system I use but arriving at similar results using the same materials. Please show the results when they are unveiled and let us know of the longer term effect after exposure to our elements.

[laalratty]

Well, here we go, a picture of one of the re-ballasted sections of the Afonglas and Nant Llwyd Railway.

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And the reason for the work? Well, its in the photo too. A beautiful black Roundhouse Beddgelert has joined my fleet, after being ordered at the end of February. It arrived at my parents last Wednesday and returning home for my weekend allowed me to steam it for the first time on Monday 12th June. I've wanted one of these since I first saw one at an Elsecar show, the reason for choosing black being that I like the 12 1/4 inch gauge version at Fairbourne which is black, and nearly everyone seems to get one in red!

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A couple more pictures of the ballasted track and Beddgelert, I think both look rather well.

[Peter Butler]

You have good reason to feel pleased with your efforts. The trackwork looks superb and makes the surrounding landscape and planting more naturalistic.... Oh, and the loco looks ok too! Just kidding..... the black paintwork really sets it off, much better than red!