O gauge track for 16mm?

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Zeno
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O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Zeno » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:38 pm

Hey everyone
New to the forum and new to garden railway so sorry if some questions are too basic knowledge

I’ve just made my first purchase for a live steam roundhouse Lilla
Problem is being in Cyprus track is very expensive
I do however have some kit o gauge made points along with spare
O gauge Lima track

Would the loco run on these and if not is there anything I can do to tamale it run ?

Thank you all in advance
Zeno

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Tingewickmax » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:47 pm

The issue might be that the rail height used in O gauge applications is around 130 thou in height (refered to as "code" 130) whereas the shallowest rail used for 32 mm gauge/16 mm scale application, SM 32, is taller at 200 thou (code 200).250 thou, code 250, being the norm and up to 332 thou on some layouts. This might give you some better idea https://www.16mm.org.uk/resources/wheel-standards/ The normal rail profile in SM 32 is flat bottom. The problem will be that the flanges on your Roundhouse loco's wheels may well be too deep and wide and foul the check rails and flangeways on your points and the sleeper chairs in general. I also have a feeling the back to measurements for the wheel sets may well be quite different between the 2 disciplines. From a scale appearance point of view, if that is important to you, the sleeper size and spacing would be far too close and small to replicate any sort of prototypical appearance. Try setting up a simple test layout and see how your loco and stock cope. Max

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by gilfachphil » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:33 pm

Hi Zeno,

I tried running sm32 locos on O gauge finescale track. They coped with plain track but tended to derail over pointwork. When you look at sm32 track against O gauge the difference is very noticeable.

Phil.

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Lonsdaler » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:30 am

Welcome to the forum Zeno, and no question is too basic.
Not sure what you class as too expensive, but new Peco track in the UK works out at about £10 a yard (36").
You could always make your own (search the forum for making track) and even try youtube or the internet generally.
If £10 per yard is acceptable, maybe find someone from the UK who is going to come to Cyprus to bring it for you?
Whatever solution you come up with, good luck and enjoy your new loco when it arrives.
Phil

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My Line - https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... 41&t=11077

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Tingewickmax » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:41 am

A thought has occurred to me, your Lilla loco can be set to either 32 mm or 45 mm gauge. Resetting the wheels' gauging is simplicity itself. The wheels are retained by grub screws and an Allen key and gauge setting template should have been included to do this, assuming you have bought it new.

The benefits of going to a 45 mm gauge, assuming you have not yet bought any other rolling stock or items to run on 32 mm gauge, is as follows -

45 mm gauged track is more widely used than 32 mm track systems suitable for use with a Lilla loco or similar, in garden railway applications (I.e. UV protected plastic sleepers, etc'). If you buy the LGB type code 332 rail based track systems it is very plentiful, and therefore possibly obtainable cheaper, more easily and closer to home. It offers a wider veriety of off the shelf track formations than most 32 mm based systems, so allowing more flexible layout permutations without the need to kit build track elements. It is made by a number of manufacturers now and in the past, which again opens up the availability and lower cost options. It is a lot more robust than most 32 mm track types available that your Lila will run on. Most 16 mm scale rolling stock offered for sale, to match your Lilla size and physical nature, in either RTR or kit form, is either readily regaugable between the two gauges or supplied either/or gauges, so you are not limited on the type of stock you can run with your loco. Starting with a 45 mm gauged layout opens up much wider possibilities for the types of locos and stock you can run as your interests develop in the future.

Just a thought. Max

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Zeno » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:16 pm

Lonsdaler wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:30 am
Welcome to the forum Zeno, and no question is too basic.
Not sure what you class as too expensive, but new Peco track in the UK works out at about £10 a yard (36").
You could always make your own (search the forum for making track) and even try youtube or the internet generally.
If £10 per yard is acceptable, maybe find someone from the UK who is going to come to Cyprus to bring it for you?
Whatever solution you come up with, good luck and enjoy your new loco when it arrives.
The price of the track itself is not a problem but rather the shipping and import taxes when it arrives to Cyprus
That’s why I’m trying to reuse old track
When I move to England however I’ll be using proper g scale track.

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by BWLR » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:27 pm

Welcome to the forum Zeno!

I think it is a great idea to try and re-use the track , especially if it is going to be a temporary situation and you are planning to move to the UK - paying out for new track and the shipping costs etc. and then having to take it back to Britain doesn't make a lot of sense.

However as has already been mentioned, there are going to be two different issues, plain track and points.

The flanges on my Roundhouse locos are about 2mm deep, so provided you have that amount of clearance between the top of the rail and the chairs it shouldn't be a problem for plain track. I've no idea what code rail is used on Lima O gauge track (and a quick google doesn't help much for that information either) if you put your Lilla on a piece of track you will soon see if it is likely to work. It is worth noting that the flange depth on most 16mm scale stock is probably going to slightly less than that (my Accucraft locos and most of my kit built stock have wheels with flanges more like 1.5mm), so if your Lilla works on it, just about anything else will.

For points it is a totally different matter as you have to consider the clearances with guard rails and frogs and that is more likely to be a problem as 16mm/ft wheels are going to be quite a bit chunkier width-wise than the 7mm/ft ones. I think you will probably have problems with that...

I hope you enjoy your Lilla, its a lovely little loco and a great choice!

Peter
Bishops Woodland Light Railway - Youtube

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Lonsdaler » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:55 am

Zeno wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:16 pm
The price of the track itself is not a problem but rather the shipping and import taxes when it arrives to Cyprus
That’s why I’m trying to reuse old track
When I move to England however I’ll be using proper g scale track.
In that case, wait until you are here. There are usually offers on second hand SM32 track for sale on fleabay and in the facebook groups, so you can save some money that way. In the meantime, Peter's (BWLR) suggestion is a good workaround so you can run your loco in :thumbup:
Phil

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My Line - https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... 41&t=11077

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by spaeker » Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:22 pm

I wish I understood the tech language here ... Forgive help me out

I run what I call "O" Gauge as my track is 32mm width Perceived as word of god but now doubtful ?

Am I confusing "scale " with "gauge" Anyway how can you have O gauge track at 16mm track width Isnt that HO ? ( 16mm ) YOu would have to put a third rail into a 32mm track to run HO ie loco with a 16mm wheel width .
And what is SM32 track please ?
Put me out of misery please Is there a simple non jargon guide ?

yours as newbie : now quite doubtful in both cerebral hemispheres Ms O

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Tingewickmax » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:04 pm

16 mm when used in the context of 32 mm gauge track is a scale - 16 mm to the foot. Hence a 16 m scale model of a loco that is prototypically (real life) run on a two ft gauge track will naturally be gauged at 32 mm to be true to scale. 2 ft = 16 mm x 2 = 32. Hence SM 32 = Sixteen Millimetre scale on 32 mm gauged track.

A lot of common modelling track gauges were originally associated with certain scales when originally applied to models of standard gauge (real life 4ft81/2inches). To confuse things the actual scale applied to a particular gauge could vary in the country where it was used. So Gauge 1/45 mm would apply to 1:32 or 10 mm to the foot scale replicas of std gauge stock. Likewise Gauge O/32 mm 1:43/1:48, 00/H0/16.5 mm gauge 1:76/1:87 scales respectively. They then were naturals to adopt when modelling the smaller narrow gauge prototypes being readily available track systems with only a few compromises having to be made, in some cases, to get the stock to fit. E.G. 16 mm scale models of 2ft 3 in ansd 2ft 6 in gauged prototypes being run on 32 mm gauged track. You will find another scale, 1:13/7/8th inch to the foot will use the 45 mm gauge track associated with gauge 1 to depict 2ft gauge at that scale.

For example - 45 mm gauge is used for a fair few scales, more so than 32 mm where the larger scales between 1:13 & 1:32 are concerned. So much so to the point that the scale the model is supposed to be presented at bares only a passing, even scant, relationship to the gauge of track it will be made to run on. Certainly one needs to be able to be able to separate scale from gauge when viewing larger garden operated models.

The fun begins when you start applying different scales, to model narrow gauge stock, to the the different track gauges associated with standard gauge scale models. Take the 009 appellation, that is models of narrow gauge stock, modelled at 1:76 running on N gauge/9mm track, hence the 009 appellation. In the rest of Europe its near equivelent is reffered to as HOe and adopts the 1:87 scale but still uses the 9 mm track gauge associate with N. It's a minefield to the uninitiated. Me, my liking is for Fn3. Ok now I am being perverse. I hope this helps. Max

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Lonsdaler » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:12 pm

spaeker wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:22 pm
I wish I understood the tech language here ... Forgive help me out

I run what I call "O" Gauge as my track is 32mm width Perceived as word of god but now doubtful ?

Am I confusing "scale " with "gauge" Anyway how can you have O gauge track at 16mm track width Isnt that HO ? ( 16mm ) YOu would have to put a third rail into a 32mm track to run HO ie loco with a 16mm wheel width .
And what is SM32 track please ?
Put me out of misery please Is there a simple non jargon guide ?

yours as newbie : now quite doubtful in both cerebral hemispheres Ms O
Sorry Spaeker, I unintentionally muddied the waters there :oops: Max has given a comprehensive answer already... but maybe a little too comprehensive :? .
Suffice to say - 16mm is the scale (16mm to the foot - 12" or about 30cm) SM32 track is 32mm track scaled to represent 2 foot (or 60cm) narrow gauge track. There is a good explanation on wikipedia
Phil

Previously sporadic Garden Railer who's getting more consistent

My Line - https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... 41&t=11077

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by spaeker » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:19 am

hello phil / tinge..
thankyou both for replies

I will try Wikipedia but suspect you two are probably my guide.. My aim now is to express m'self concisely to other modellers so not to get the wrong parts ???
Looks to me like folks often interchange scale and O guage ?

Anyway Marks out of 10 please so I wont get the wrong parts
So:
1. I started with presuming My railway is ( and for spare parts etc) is define by "O Gauge" ( could get wrong parts but why ?? ) Why is that not enough to even get 32mm track or even locos with the wheels right width ? .
2. Now I supplement myself with "O gauge/ 32mm( track)
3. Now as you seem to say I must have 3 components to define The further essential is the scale : "O guage" / 32mm ( track) /16mm scale

(I got thoroughly confused when I saw an article of someone exactly running a 16mm track inside a 32mm track ( 3 rail) so running HO gauge loco with O gauge !)
OK ?
test: Marks /10 :) : HO gauge /16.5mm/3.5mm scale defines ho gauge pare parts ?
getting serious as thinking of actually putting in a 3rd rail to run HO with my O :idea:
ciao spaeker

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by philipy » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:53 pm

spaeker wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:19 am
Looks to me like folks often interchange scale and O guage ?
Yes, people do often interchange scale and gauge, often incorrectly.
spaeker wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:19 am

1. I started with presuming My railway is ( and for spare parts etc) is define by "O Gauge" ( could get wrong parts but why ?? ) Why is that not enough to even get 32mm track or even locos with the wheels right width ? .
You are really starting from the wrong end, here :), in that you have a Lilla, which is by definition a narrow gauge loco and not O Gauge. O Gauge is nominally for standard gauge loco's/rolling stock. Using Peco track as an example, their O Gauge track has finer code rail, and sleepers which are smaller and closer together than the Peco SM32 track, even though the distance between the rails is the same (32mm).
O Gauge models are at 7mm:ft scale whereas SM32 is at a scale of 16mm:1ft i.e more than twice the physical size.
spaeker wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:19 am
2. Now I supplement myself with "O gauge/ 32mm( track)
3. Now as you seem to say I must have 3 components to define The further essential is the scale : "O guage" / 32mm ( track) /16mm scale
The Lilla is 16mm scale and runs on 32mm track. That is classically defined as SM32 and is really all you need to think about, to begin with at least. However, unless you intend to model a specific narrow gauge prototype railway, many modellers will run almost anything that will run on SM32 track - forget "O Gauge", it has nothing to do with 16mm narrow gauge apart from the coincidence of the number 32
spaeker wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:19 am
(I got thoroughly confused when I saw an article of someone exactly running a 16mm track inside a 32mm track ( 3 rail) so running HO gauge loco with O gauge !)
OK ?
test: Marks /10 :) : HO gauge /16.5mm/3.5mm scale defines ho gauge pare parts ?

getting serious as thinking of actually putting in a 3rd rail to run HO with my O :idea:
Yes you get 10/10 for that definition of HO, but forget dual gauge, for now at least. It's taxing to deal with for experienced modellers and not really for beginners.

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Jimmyb » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:59 pm

Philpy, I think you have summed it up very well :thumbright:

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Re: O gauge track for 16mm?

Post by Lonsdaler » Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:47 pm

I think Philipy has summed up very well in his answers to your 'test' :)
Definitely forget O gauge - you are just confusing yourself :thumbup:
Phil

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