UK Rolling Stock in G - Project not yet started

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UK Rolling Stock in G - Project not yet started

Post by stevenfitch » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:42 pm

Hi

I have modeled (indoors) in N Gauge for years now and i have been considering for a while setting up a garden railway, there is plenty of room in the garden and an empty single garage which can be converted to use for storage, indoor fiddle yard etc. I was initially planning to use O Gauge but i figure for the garden G would be the way forward for two main reasons:

1) Most of the equipment, trackwork and rolling stock are listed as designed for outdoor use, O gauge stuff is not.

2) Its bigger so a rogue twig between the sleepers that could de-rail a O Gauge has less chance of causing such a problem with G.

I would ideally like to model UK based diesels such a BR Class 20 pulling some MK1's & BR Class 47 pulling some coal wagons with maybe a steam loco as well (not narrow gauge). Running on what i intend to be a dogbone forming a double track mainline with a spur to a branchline to the 'coal mine' and back.

Powered by DCC and automated using http://www.freiwald.com/pages/traincontroller.htm which i am already very familiar with.

I'm not too keen / interested in building from a kit, no way would i be able to scratch build anything (i've tried many times with simple scenic buildings in N and it always turns out cheaper to but a better made, more realists off the shelf model).

So the question is:

Does anyone know any manufacturers of UK rolling stock?
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Post by McRuss » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:56 am

Hello Steven,

I don't know a UK manufacturer for G scale british nomal gauge rolling stock.
But at the german british railway forum a chap built a Deltic for G gauge.

http://75355.homepagemodules.de/t1619f3 ... pur-G.html

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Post by ge_rik » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:34 am

If you're looking at running standard gauge stock on 45mm gauge track, then you could do with investigating Gauge 1. The Gauge 1 Model Railway Association (G1MRA - http://www.g1mra.com/ ) is well established and will provide you with plenty of info on suppliers of ready to run stock (eg Brassmasters).

Good luck - running trains outdoors is great.

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Post by stevenfitch » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:21 am

ge_rik:108380 wrote:If you're looking at running standard gauge stock on 45mm gauge track, then you could do with investigating Gauge 1. The Gauge 1 Model Railway Association (G1MRA - http://www.g1mra.com/ ) is well established and will provide you with plenty of info on suppliers of ready to run stock (eg Brassmasters).

Good luck - running trains outdoors is great.

Rik
So let me know if ive got this wrong, in order of size, small to large you have:

00 Gauge
0 Gauge
Gauge 1
G Scale

So Gauge 1 would be right in the middle of my original choices?

(i know i'm mixing 'Gauge' & 'Scale' but just using the common names)
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Post by DaveWatkins » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:20 pm

Well yes , in terms of size you are right. Gauge 1 and G scale use the same track gauge of 45mm.

If you want to buy British standard gauge trains to run on 45mm gauge track then you need to be looking at Gauge 1 as was said earlier. British Gauge 1 models are usually built to 1:32 scale (that is 3/8" to the foot) though sometimes the slightly larger 10mm to the foot is used.

Some American models of standard gauge trains use a larger scale of 1:29. I am not aware of this being used by any manufacturer of British standard gauge models.
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Post by ge_rik » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:29 pm

stevenfitch:108381 wrote:
So let me know if ive got this wrong, in order of size, small to large you have:

00 Gauge
0 Gauge
Gauge 1
G Scale

So Gauge 1 would be  right in the middle of my original choices?

(i know i'm mixing 'Gauge' & 'Scale' but just using the common names)
The topic of what actually constitutes G 'scale' is enormous. In fact you are safer referring to it as 'G gauge'.

Extract from Wikipedia (for example)

Below are some typical scales with more specific terms that all run on 45 mm gauge track:

Gauge One scaled at 1:32 used to model standard gauge trains of 4 ft 8 1⁄2 in (1,435 mm) standard gauge gauge.

'G' scale 1:22.5 used to model European trains that run on 1,000 mm (3 ft 3 3⁄8 in) gauge track.

'H' scale (1/2" to the foot) 1:24 used to model 3 ft 6 in (1,067 mm) narrow gauge or 'Cape gauge'. Incorrectly used for 3 ft (914 mm) narrow gauge track.

'F' or 'Fine scale' 1:20.32 typically used to model North American narrow gauge trains on 3 ft (914 mm) gauge track.

SE (7/8" to the foot) 1:13.7 used to model trains on 2 ft (610 mm) narrow gauge track.


To make matters more complicated, each manufacturer of 'G scale' (or to be more correct - G Gauge), equipment seems to have adopted a slightly difference scale (often referred to as the 'rubber ruler') though as indicated above, it's dependent on what gauge the prototype being modelled originally ran on.

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Post by stevenfitch » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:54 pm

DaveWatkins:108383 wrote:Well yes , in terms of size you are right. Gauge 1 and G scale use the same track gauge of 45mm.

If you want to buy British standard gauge trains to run on 45mm gauge track then you need to be looking at Gauge 1 as was said earlier. British Gauge 1 models are usually built to 1:32 scale (that is 3/8" to the foot) though sometimes the slightly larger 10mm to the foot is used.

Some American models of standard gauge trains use a larger scale of 1:29. I am not aware of this being used by any manufacturer of British standard gauge models.
That actually makes it easier if its all 45mm, all i really need to look at to begin with then is the 45mm track, planning on using the larger radius curves as i don't like the sudden direction changes when running over the short points.

Anyone got any suggestions or experience of a particular manufacturer of track that is good? any to avoid?
I'm looking for electric points control, running the whole thing DCC.
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Post by laurence703 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:56 pm

Peco for track. Have a look at Garden Railway Specialists for locos and stock.
No one expects the SPANISH ACQUISITION!!!

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Post by stevenfitch » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:12 pm

This is pretty much what i am hoping to achieve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FuUfzmzrDY
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Post by maxi-model » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:17 am

I think if you are adamant on modelling G1 1:32 British outline Diesel with ready built stock you first need to look at that area's viability and availability of product first before doing anything else to avoid any wasted time.

The problem is that G1 is what might be considered "finescale" and apart from looking at a lot of costly kit you are probably looking at running on a raised track on boards or one with very solidly made foundation and ground structure as the true G1 track systems are somewhat less robust, code 210 (I think) rather than code 332 typicaly used by us less "scale sensitive" G operators - if you see what I mean. It depends on how keen on the prototypical reality you are.

The principal binding factor (IMHO) of what is termed "G" scale is not scale but the fact that most operators choose to use the robust code 332 cross compatible rail systems that abound. As mentioned above once you have got the track down then just about anything goes and there is a plethora of RTR stock to support it. From the US 1:29 standard gauge and 1:20.3 & 24 narrow. In the EU and UK mostly narrow gauge prototypes and scales from 1:13 - 1:22.5 to run. DC/DCC/Battery and live steam.

The only economical mass produced 1:32 diesel loco I know is the Aristocraft class 66, a beautiful good running DCC adaptable model. They also made some container wagons to go with it. It was a relative sales flop with a lot of stock being "closed out" cheap not so long ago. An exercise probably not to be repeted. The market seems too limited in the larger scales to support this area of interest for economical  RTR stock. Expensive RTR from kit built for you possibly. Max

P.S. Even one of my 1:20.3 Mikados can get derailed by a stray twig.

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Post by stevenfitch » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:38 pm

Cheers for that reply and the same to everyone else.

I'm coming to the conclusion that British outline only is not going to be a realistic option.

I'm intending to be at or very near ground level and you've backed up what i'd read elsewhere about the choice of track so i think i'll be going for the code 332 and running the mixture of American, European and anything else - my intention is to create more of a feature of the garden rather than an prototypical railway.

So decision made 45mm, Code 332 it is.

Fair point with the Class 66 as well - if they couldn't sell many of those then the market clearly isn't big enough so any other manufacturer would be hesitant to try anything like that in the near future.
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Post by ge_rik » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:19 am

stevenfitch:108387 wrote:This is pretty much what i am hoping to achieve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FuUfzmzrDY
Best of luck with the computer control aspect (if that's what interests you). Something I toyed with back my days with DCC, but I chickened out, assuming the wiring would be ...... 'interesting'.

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Decision Made...

Post by stevenfitch » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:10 am

OK, some deciding has been done and i've dropped the idea of UK rolling stock in favour of 'whatever goes'.

I've also got as far as an initial plan done in anyrail. Don't worry, the tracks will not be as perfectly / boringly straight as the plan and its nowhere near scale size!

The trackwork itself will be approx 2ft from ground height situated in yet to be built raised areas, fronted by railway sleepers (similar to what Mark Found did in the TV series). The beds will be full of compacted earth, trackbed made out of breeze blocks, track screwed to this with rawl plugs. I am hoping to keep the trackbed mostly a few inches above the surroundings on a mini embankment. Track surrounded by various rocks, plants etc to provide the scenics.

The BLUE track will be inside the garage used as a hidden yard during operation and also provide on and off track storage.

The GREY track is phase one and is to go into the currently blank canvas that will in the centre have some raised vegetable plots.

The RED track is phase two which will hopefully be fitted in and around the existing flower beds down one edge of the garden.

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Post by stevenfitch » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:12 am

ge_rik:108429 wrote:
stevenfitch:108387 wrote:This is pretty much what i am hoping to achieve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FuUfzmzrDY
Best of luck with the computer control aspect (if that's what interests you). Something I toyed with back my days with DCC, but I chickened out, assuming the wiring would be ...... 'interesting'.

Rik
Thanks, i've seen your videos a few times and had a good read of some of your blog articles - i like the river which i may have to copy down the side of my phase two!
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Post by stevenfitch » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:15 am

laurence703:108386 wrote:Peco for track. Have a look at Garden Railway Specialists for locos and stock.
Did you mean Peco or Piko?
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Post by laurence703 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:02 am

PECO... Although it is compatible with PIKO and Aristocraft and LGB Tracks
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Post by stevenfitch » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:20 pm

laurence703:109126 wrote:PECO... Although it is compatible with PIKO and Aristocraft and LGB Tracks
Do you need a special tool in order to shape the PECO flexi?
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Post by maxi-model » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:28 am

Peco is a code 250 (rail height in thou) track system not code 332 like all the other easily cross compatible 45 mm types - Piko/LGB/Accucraft/Aristocraft/Trainline/Bachmann. Yes, Tenmille, another make, is Code 332 but is a different rail profile and needs adaptors. You can incorporate Peco with the others but only with special adaptors. So, awkward to "mix and match" and less comprehensive where specialist "set track" formations and components are required. What do you consider "larger radius" ? Anything below 4 ft (8 ft diameter)  and you could be making serious limitations for yourself in future. Depends on what you want to run though.

Rail benders (a type of hand held rolling mill for rails) IMHO are pretty essential if you are bending lots of flexi rail sets. Not cheap to buy (some retailers will rent them) but well worth it if you want clean running track and no awkward transitions. Again if you start using different rail profiles you will need different rail benders for each type, or at least different roller components fitted to the rail benders. Expensive

Looking at your track plan I can see a lot of electrical conflicts, if you are going DC, where your track loops back on itself that are going to require a lot of reverse polarity switches or similar and need to consider usable train lengths in these sections. Don't know if anything in DCC solves this. Doubt it.

As you say are going down the DC/DCC route I would recommend you join the G Scale society and get along to one of their group members' meets local to you to get a feel for what it is all about before doing anything else. Their annual show is on in Stafford, if that is not too far, on 22nd March. Or you could go to the 16 mm NGM show at Peterborough on the 13th April. Both have all the big (and small) retailers in attendance, pretty much the same bunch at both, who  will be able to put you on the straight and narrow (geddit !). They are well worth the trip as you will easily spend a whole day there at either. Leave credit card at home and don't be tempted by the cash machine  :D  Max.

P.S. You might want to take a look at the G Scale Central Forum http://www.gscalecentral.net/  for posting regarding DC/DCC related matters. The Garden Railway Forum seems to be geared mainly to live steam and battery power operators. Most here may not be familiar with the issues surrounding DC/DCC operation that you will be needing information on. No disrespect to those here.

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Post by stevenfitch » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:38 am

maxi-model:109160 wrote:Peco is a code 250 (rail height in thou) track system not code 332 like all the other easily cross compatible 45 mm types - Piko/LGB/Accucraft/Aristocraft/Trainline/Bachmann. Yes, Tenmille, another make, is Code 332 but is a different rail profile and needs adaptors. You can incorporate Peco with the others but only with special adaptors. So, awkward to "mix and match" and less comprehensive where specialist "set track" formations and components are required. What do you consider "larger radius" ? Anything below 4 ft (8 ft diameter)  and you could be making serious limitations for yourself in future. Depends on what you want to run though.

Rail benders (a type of hand held rolling mill for rails) IMHO are pretty essential if you are bending lots of flexi rail sets. Not cheap to buy (some retailers will rent them) but well worth it if you want clean running track and no awkward transitions. Again if you start using different rail profiles you will need different rail benders for each type, or at least different roller components fitted to the rail benders. Expensive

Looking at your track plan I can see a lot of electrical conflicts, if you are going DC, where your track loops back on itself that are going to require a lot of reverse polarity switches or similar and need to consider usable train lengths in these sections. Don't know if anything in DCC solves this. Doubt it.

As you say are going down the DC/DCC route I would recommend you join the G Scale society and get along to one of their group members' meets local to you to get a feel for what it is all about before doing anything else. Their annual show is on in Stafford, if that is not too far, on 22nd March. Or you could go to the 16 mm NGM show at Peterborough on the 13th April. Both have all the big (and small) retailers in attendance, pretty much the same bunch at both, who  will be able to put you on the straight and narrow (geddit !). They are well worth the trip as you will easily spend a whole day there at either. Leave credit card at home and don't be tempted by the cash machine  :D  Max.

P.S. You might want to take a look at the G Scale Central Forum http://www.gscalecentral.net/  for posting regarding DC/DCC related matters. The Garden Railway Forum seems to be geared mainly to live steam and battery power operators. Most here may not be familiar with the issues surrounding DC/DCC operation that you will be needing information on. No disrespect to those here.
Cheers for that:

As far as track goes i think i'm going to stick with PIKO code 332 and the curves will be using the setrack so no need for a rail bender.

As far as the electrical side goes i'll be going DCC automated which ive already done in n-gauge (http://www.modelrailwayforum.co.uk/show ... php?t=5314) so i'm fine with using auto reversing sections etc, just need to work out what cabling to use now.

A new plan has been devised now i've started using the actual dimensions of the garden, the brown boxes are raised veg beds.


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Post by stevenfitch » Fri May 29, 2015 10:36 pm

The decision has been made that my current N Gauge layout will be dismantled and sold off as there is just no room for anything like it at the new house. This then gives me the equipment, budget and justification to go bigger on the garden railway plans.

Existing Layout - http://www.modelrailwayforum.co.uk/show ... php?t=5314

New plan and schematic of automation.

The dark purple is at 80cm from ground height
The pink is as 70cm from ground height
The blue is at 50 cm from ground height

There will be a double level bridge behind the greenhouse (track levels 80cm and 50cm)

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