Southwold coach

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ge_rik
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Re: Southwold coach

Post by ge_rik » Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:48 pm

This reminds me of the discussions which occur on my weekly walks with a group of friends from the village (before we were limited to walking with just one other person). One was a Mining Engineer, one was a chemical engineer, one was a mechanical engineer and the other was a secondary school science teacher ( with a First from Imperial).

As a former primary school teacher, I sometimes just let them get on with it ...... 😳🤔😏

Rik
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Re: Southwold coach

Post by ge_rik » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:59 pm

More or less finished the coach.

Not the best photos. The weather has been awful all day here and so not been able to take it out into the garden for a test run and get pictures in decent lighting.
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I've not yet managed to give it a proper run over the whole line, but it now seems OK over the most undulating section .....

Weather permitting, I can test out its running characteristics at some point over the weekend

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:12 pm

That's looking very nice Rik, I do hope it lives up to expectations.
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Re: Southwold coach

Post by philipy » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:18 pm

Amazingly spacious and open looking. I know nothing about the prototype but that is a very nice model.
Philip

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by Soar Valley Light » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:11 pm

Hi Rik,

That's lovely! I bet it's going to look the bee's knees with your existing passenger stock. The livery really suits it.

The steps and the handrails have worked out very well. I love the profile of the hand rails and the chain across between them really sets it off.

Are your platforms long enough to accommodate the full rake or is a a project in hand for platform extensions? ;)

All the best,

Andrew
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Re: Southwold coach

Post by ge_rik » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:40 pm

philipy wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:18 pm Amazingly spacious and open looking. I know nothing about the prototype but that is a very nice model.
The original livery only lasted a few years before being repainted in a plain colour scheme (as per the coach in the background). I chickened out of the fancy livery.
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Re: Southwold coach

Post by ge_rik » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:42 pm

Soar Valley Light wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:11 pm Are your platforms long enough to accommodate the full rake or is a a project in hand for platform extensions? ;)
Thanks Andrew
Fortunately, they are about the same length as my Leek & Manifold(ish) coaches and so I should be able to get away with it .... provided the six-wheel system works out OK

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by LNR » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:41 pm

As Philip said, a very open and airy design. Lovely work as usual Rik. It is certainly a very long vehicle to be on six wheels!
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Re: Southwold coach

Post by Andrew » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:34 am

That really is a very fine carriage, congratulations! A whole rake of them will look amazing!

With those big wide windows it's going to demand your very best figures, not like a small-windowed compartment coach where you can get away with cheap charity shop toys!

I see it's on your test track - surely it won't get round curves that tight?!

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by Trevor Thompson » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:51 pm

Rick

That looks very nice.

Trevor

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by ge_rik » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:16 pm

Managed to test over the entire railway this weekend. There are still two places where it sometimes derails but I can see why it's happening. Oh for a billiard-table railway!!


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Re: Southwold coach

Post by Peter Butler » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:44 pm

Congratulations Rik, it not only looks good but performs well too. I know nothing about the prototype in action but should the centre truck extend so far outside the width of the coach sides?
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Re: Southwold coach

Post by ge_rik » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:14 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:44 pm Congratulations Rik, it not only looks good but performs well too. I know nothing about the prototype in action but should the centre truck extend so far outside the width of the coach sides?
No. But I don't think the curves on the Southwold were as severe as on the PLR.

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by philipy » Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:28 am

That is a truly lovely piece of work, in every respect. Well done, Sir!
Philip

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by Andrew » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:49 am

Very nice Rik! A rake of those is going to look The Business...

Incidentally, for those interested in such things, here's how Hornby solved the "six wheels and tight corners" issue back in the 80s:
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It's quite ingenious, the centre truck floats freely within the guides (there's quite a lot of vertical play) and is attached to the couplings, which are themselves pivoted so that they also follow the curve.

It's not high on my priority list, but you never know, I might try to build a Cleminson vehicle one day - the NWNGR had some Cleminson carriages and a wagon, and the FR still has a coal wagon built on that principle, the story of which makes interesting reading. It seems they still have trouble getting it to run properly! ee: https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Clem ... led_waggon

Cheers,

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by GTB » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:51 pm

ge_rik wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:14 pm No. But I don't think the curves on the Southwold were as severe as on the PLR.
The model certainly looks like a Southwold passenger coach, so you've nailed that part of the project. I'm also impressed you managed to get it to work on R1 curves.

I can't find any mention of the Southwold minimum curve radius, but the book 'Branchline to Southwold' has a reprint of a piece printed in 'The Engineer' in 1878 describing Mr. Cleminson's brainchild. It mentions that North Wales Narrow Gauge Railway trains with these coaches were running on two chain curves and had safely reached the heady speed of 20 mph.......

What part of your track has problems with the model? Reverse curves by any chance, or are the problems on track with vertical curves?

I've always been intrigued that the diagrams of how Cleminson underframes work only ever show them on constant radius curves. Reverse curves are never discussed, nor what happens when passing from straight to curved track.

A thought experiment suggests that when running through a reverse curve the end axles will be trying to rotate in opposite directions and the whole shebang will become a very long rigid 6 wheel underframe as it passes through the transition from one curve to the other.

The Southwold Cleminson wagons have a much shorter wheelbase, so should be easier to get to work on your track I would think.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by ge_rik » Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:02 pm

GTB wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:51 pm I can't find any mention of the Southwold minimum curve radius, but the book 'Branchline to Southwold' has a reprint of a piece printed in 'The Engineer' in 1878 describing Mr. Cleminson's brainchild. It mentions that North Wales Narrow Gauge Railway trains with these coaches were running on two chain curves and had safely reached the heady speed of 20 mph.......
Peter Paye's book says the sharpest curve on the Southwold was at Halesworth with a radius of 5 chains. Not sure how the NWNGR coaches compared in length with the SR coaches. I had to bring the outer wheels inboard and increase the width of the centre truck to allow it to negotiate my curves.
GTB wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:51 pm What part of your track has problems with the model? Reverse curves by any chance, or are the problems on track with vertical curves?

I've always been intrigued that the diagrams of how Cleminson underframes work only ever show them on constant radius curves. Reverse curves are never discussed, nor what happens when passing from straight to curved track.

A thought experiment suggests that when running through a reverse curve the end axles will be trying to rotate in opposite directions and the whole shebang will become a very long rigid 6 wheel underframe as it passes through the transition from one curve to the other.
The problems I'm encountering are with vertical curves - more particularly dips where the centre wheels lose contact with the track.
I've tried it through the R2 reverse curves at Beeston Market and it gets through OK, though I can feel resistance from the flanges just before and after the half way point. The coach wheelbase seems just right for R2 reverse curves as one outer wheelset is leaving at the other is entering the curve.

Peter Paye observes (p209)
The coaches advanced in a diagonal movement when in motion and tyre wear was above average especially on the outer pairs of wheels. The wheelsets were regularly sent ...... for retyring and deep tyre turning .....
Maybe I should buy a lathe ...... :?
GTB wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:51 pm The Southwold Cleminson wagons have a much shorter wheelbase, so should be easier to get to work on your track I would think.

Regards,
Graeme
I did wonder whether to construct a wagon first, but figured that if I could sort out the undercarriage for the coach then modifying it for the wagon would be easier than vice versa.

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by GTB » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:56 am

ge_rik wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:02 pm The problems I'm encountering are with vertical curves - more particularly dips where the centre wheels lose contact with the track.
I've tried it through the R2 reverse curves at Beeston Market and it gets through OK, though I can feel resistance from the flanges just before and after the half way point. The coach wheelbase seems just right for R2 reverse curves as one outer wheelset is leaving at the other is entering the curve.
That's interesting, as an R2 curve is approx. 2'6” radius, which scales out to 50' on a real 3' gauge railway. The minimum design radius for a quarry Hunslet was 50' and I bet the flanges were squealing on that tight a curve. Somehow I doubt a Cleminson underframe would have got around the track in Penrhyn quarry.......

If it's just dips in the track that are left as the main issue and if you aren't already using them, fitting LGB wheels with their deep flange in the centre truck would help, but calling out the track gang when the weather improves for a bit of track lifting and ballast packing would be a better way forward long term. ;)

Last resort would be to build in more vertical play in the steering linkages and lightly springing the centre axle with coil springs which would give the longest spring travel.
ge_rik wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:02 pm Peter Paye observes (p209)
The coaches advanced in a diagonal movement when in motion and tyre wear was above average especially on the outer pairs of wheels. The wheelsets were regularly sent ...... for retyring and deep tyre turning .....
Maybe I should buy a lathe ...... :?
That's a very interesting comment by Paye. One of the major claims by Cleminson was that his system would reduce tyre wear.

I have actually seen serious flange wear on brass wheels in HO scale after many, many hours of running. With steel wheels and brass track, I would expect to see rail wear first on my garden railway. Given how little running I do, I haven't even seen the tarnish worn off the rail so far. :roll:

A lathe is a useful thing in modelling, but one big enough to turn wheelsets costs about the same as buying 120 steel commercial wheelsets.......... That said, if you can figure out how to use a 3D printer and find a use for it, you can probably do the same with a lathe.
ge_rik wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:02 pm I did wonder whether to construct a wagon first, but figured that if I could sort out the undercarriage for the coach then modifying it for the wagon would be easier than vice versa.
Either way would work I think. The main requirement is to be stubborn enough to fight a recalcitrant project into submission. 8)

'Nil Desperandum Carborundum'

Graeme

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by ge_rik » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:47 pm

GTB wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:56 am 'Nil Desperandum Carborundum'
Thanks Graeme, as informative as ever.
The version I know is "Illegitimi non carborundum" which I think is self explanatory ...

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Re: Southwold coach

Post by River Lin » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:19 pm

Hi All.
This is my home built NWNG railway Cleminson carriage.
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My difficulty was also trying to keep the centre truck on the track. I initially made it with a flexible coupling of rigid arms connecting the centre truck to the end trucks similar to the system below as used by DLT. On RM Web(His photo).
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This however did not allow enough flexibility for the lines I run it on. The problem was, as said, on reverse curves where a parallel siding left the main line for instance. When the first truck was turning onto the curve of the turnout the middle and rear truck were still on the strait track, but because of the front truck turning it was forcing the middle truck sideways which made it leave the rails. I then had to redesign my model with a more flexible system as shown below.
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I used a length of thin plastic coated steel wire to connect the centre truck to each end truck. It is screwed to the centre truck and passes through a hoop about half way along the end truck arm giving about 4cm of unsupported wire either side of the centre truck. This allows one end truck to turn while, due to the flexibility of the wire, the centre truck can still be on strait track. In the extreme case, while one end truck is on the siding and the other end truck is on the parallel main line, the centre truck can be going round the curve of the turnout.
I also allowed plenty of vertical movement in the centre truck guides to allow for the length of the carriage on uneven track.
David.
Last edited by River Lin on Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
David T.

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