Another Wild Rose Project

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:51 pm

Busted Bricks wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:51 am A slitting saw is just a saw blade. You need a mandrel to mount it on so it can be chucked in the mill or lathe.
Ah right I see. Well I do have a slitting saw in a mandrel, so it should just be a case of getting a 2mm saw blade that fits my mandrel. :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:53 pm

GTB wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:35 pm
-steves- wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:44 am LOL, I think it will be many a month away before I have anything that resembles working parts :) The problem I currently have is a cheap 10ba die, it hasn't really threaded it as opposed to stripped it and left more of an engraving mark.
I'm planning on mine being completed in time for the GSSU here in Melbourne in early Nov., but I have to make a boiler as well. Anyway.....

I've had good quality brands of HSS die also pull that stunt on me. I mostly use a brand of taps and dies called Aprica, which is a house brand sold by a local supplier. They are carbon steel, so no good for threading stainless.

I have some taps and dies from T&D in the UK which are HQS steel and can handle stainless. They came from a local supplier, but unfortunately he no longer sells them, so I use them as little as possible and very carefully, as I can't easily replace them. The prices were reasonable by local standards.

https://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-uk/d169_FAQ.html

This page on Harold Hall's site might be useful to show how slitting saws are used in a vertical mill and a lathe. The saw blade is mounted on what Harold also calls a mandrel, although my usual machine tool supplier calls them a milling arbor. This site is a good reference for home machinists, as it includes a lot of photos. of various home workshop projects, processes and setups.

http://www.homews.co.uk/page564.html

My 50mm milling vices have a vertical and horizontal v-groove in the face of one jaw that can be used to securely hold round stock down to about 3mm dia. To use a slot drill to make the slot in the valve rod, I'd probably use that groove to hold the rod horizontally and then slowly mill the slot with a 2mm slot drill, using 0.25mm at a time for each cut. Like I said like watching paint dry.

I've got a few metric taps and dies for working on my Aster and Accucraft locos. Not easy (or cheap) to get metric ones locally for anything smaller than M3 and pretty much impossible to find hex head fasteners smaller than M3. Plus the hex on small ISO metric fasteners is a lot larger than the equivalent BA ones. I've had to make my own hex head screws to match the 'scale' Accucraft ones and finding small metric hex bar here isn't easy either.......

It is still relatively easier to find BA taps, dies and fasteners here in Oz, than the nearest metric sizes, so I've stayed with BA and ME threads on my models. How long that will last I don't know, as the boomer generation is the last one with enough interest in model engineering to support local suppliers.

Regards,
Graeme
I will reply to this when I get home as I am just at a wedding, lol. :lol:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:48 pm

GTB wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:35 pm
I'm planning on mine being completed in time for the GSSU here in Melbourne in early Nov., but I have to make a boiler as well. Anyway.....

I've had good quality brands of HSS die also pull that stunt on me. I mostly use a brand of taps and dies called Aprica, which is a house brand sold by a local supplier. They are carbon steel, so no good for threading stainless.

I have some taps and dies from T&D in the UK which are HQS steel and can handle stainless. They came from a local supplier, but unfortunately he no longer sells them, so I use them as little as possible and very carefully, as I can't easily replace them. The prices were reasonable by local standards.

https://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-uk/d169_FAQ.html

This page on Harold Hall's site might be useful to show how slitting saws are used in a vertical mill and a lathe. The saw blade is mounted on what Harold also calls a mandrel, although my usual machine tool supplier calls them a milling arbor. This site is a good reference for home machinists, as it includes a lot of photos. of various home workshop projects, processes and setups.

http://www.homews.co.uk/page564.html

My 50mm milling vices have a vertical and horizontal v-groove in the face of one jaw that can be used to securely hold round stock down to about 3mm dia. To use a slot drill to make the slot in the valve rod, I'd probably use that groove to hold the rod horizontally and then slowly mill the slot with a 2mm slot drill, using 0.25mm at a time for each cut. Like I said like watching paint dry.

I've got a few metric taps and dies for working on my Aster and Accucraft locos. Not easy (or cheap) to get metric ones locally for anything smaller than M3 and pretty much impossible to find hex head fasteners smaller than M3. Plus the hex on small ISO metric fasteners is a lot larger than the equivalent BA ones. I've had to make my own hex head screws to match the 'scale' Accucraft ones and finding small metric hex bar here isn't easy either.......

It is still relatively easier to find BA taps, dies and fasteners here in Oz, than the nearest metric sizes, so I've stayed with BA and ME threads on my models. How long that will last I don't know, as the boomer generation is the last one with enough interest in model engineering to support local suppliers.

Regards,
Graeme
I am sure you will get it done without any troubles, even with a boiler in that time.

Time for some investment in tools again it looks like as I can't be having that all the time with dies.

I do have a slitting saw on an arbour, but it's only 0.75mm so yet again, investment in tools again, lol.

I have a number of decent metric taps and dies which for the smaller sizes are decent quality and purchased locally.

I do have the advantage here of being able to get any size ba nuts and bots, right down to 14ba, which is super tiny. If you struggle to get things there, I am sure someone (or me) could but some and drop you a few of what you need in the post if you can't get them locally.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:58 pm

Spent a little time on the cylinders today, not finished, but definitely started. Bit of a mishap today, I am intact but I did take the very tip of the skin of my finger off in the mill when I was being stupid and decided to brush the work down with my finger while the mill was still running. Just a bit of skin and flesh and I will be back to rights in no time, it could have been so much worse and I will take that as a warning ;)

I used one of my 4mm steel rods as a test piece and ran my 0.75mm slitting saw across it, the results were good, I just need to get the 2mm thick one now and remake the rods as the die stripped them. :oops:

Image

Below are the cylinders so far with the fronts made but not drilled or tapped yet and the backs part made. I am not 100% sure what the backs look like, but from what I can make of the plans, you turn it down to about 9mm round, the mill one flat down to 8mm and the other down to 7mm. I guess that's the next job when I am in the workshop.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by FWLR » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:59 am

For someone who has very little experience with lathes Steve, I think you are doing a fantastic job. And the guys are giving you some very good advice and you will get even better with their help.

It won't be long before your Lathe will get to look like an apprenticed trained skilled Engineer..... :thumbleft:

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:04 pm

FWLR wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:59 am For someone who has very little experience with lathes Steve, I think you are doing a fantastic job. And the guys are giving you some very good advice and you will get even better with their help.

It won't be long before your Lathe will get to look like an apprenticed trained skilled Engineer..... :thumbleft:
Thanks again Rod :)

The guys on here give me some very helpful and useful advice and it's all very well appreciated, that's what I like about this forum, the diversity and variety of skills and knowledge on here.

Let's hope I can live up to the high expectations I am setting myself as I do make lots of mistakes along the way, but so far I have either been able to rectify them or remake them. Their might come a time when I just can't work out how to do something and grind to a halt, which worries me a bit as I don't have the engineering background of many people, all I know is I love trying and I love building things :thumbleft:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Peter Butler » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:43 pm

I'll say it again.... 'I'm not an engineer' but I do appreciate your work and description of the methods you employ. We both use different tools and materials but our passions are the same in that we push ourselves to fulfil our expectations of our own abilities and find ways to achieve that.
Keep going and show us what you can do.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:58 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:43 pm I'll say it again.... 'I'm not an engineer' but I do appreciate your work and description of the methods you employ. We both use different tools and materials but our passions are the same in that we push ourselves to fulfil our expectations of our own abilities and find ways to achieve that.
Keep going and show us what you can do.
Thanks Peter, appreciate the kind words. As you say, we all work with different materials in different ways and as long as we enjoy our hobby, that's what it is all about :thumbup: :thumbleft:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by FWLR » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:54 am

-steves- wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:58 pm
Peter Butler wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:43 pm I'll say it again.... 'I'm not an engineer' but I do appreciate your work and description of the methods you employ. We both use different tools and materials but our passions are the same in that we push ourselves to fulfil our expectations of our own abilities and find ways to achieve that.
Keep going and show us what you can do.
Thanks Peter, appreciate the kind words. As you say, we all work with different materials in different ways and as long as we enjoy our hobby, that's what it is all about :thumbup: :thumbleft:
Totally agree there guys.... :thumbright: :thumbright:

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:54 pm

Did a couple of bits today, managed to get the bronze bearings made (all the same size for a change) as well as the cylinders and covers drilled out ready to be tapped :) (better still, I managed to not drill through the sides of the cylinders which I fully expected to do as I usually do on that kind of tight limits)

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by FWLR » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:27 am

Nice job Steve... :thumbright: :thumbright:

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by IanC » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:26 am

Steve, I am not an engineer, I haven't worked in, or for, industry. It doesn't stop me from following your threads and builds with interest. I doubt I will ever own a lathe, pillar drill or any other type of engineering machinery but there are still things I can learn and I enjoy seeing something come together to the finished article. I follow your reports and builds with much interest.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:24 pm

FWLR wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:27 am Nice job Steve... :thumbright: :thumbright:
Thanks Rod, appreciate it :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:32 pm

IanC wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:26 am Steve, I am not an engineer, I haven't worked in, or for, industry. It doesn't stop me from following your threads and builds with interest. I doubt I will ever own a lathe, pillar drill or any other type of engineering machinery but there are still things I can learn and I enjoy seeing something come together to the finished article. I follow your reports and builds with much interest.
Ian, honestly, it's really nice to know that someone follows my random waffling posts and looks forward to seeing the finished loco.

We all work with different things and there was certainly a time where I could not see me owning a lathe, a mill nor anything else engineering wose, but I took the plunge a few years ago and decided, you are never too old to learn and unless you try, you will never know. So far the end results of my builds in both plasticard and more recently in metal have have honestly surprised me more than anyone as I never knew I had it in me :thumbup:

I have no idea if this latest project will ever get finished let alone run, but the fact that I have started and I am thoroughly enjoying it so far, puts me further forward than it would if I had not tried :thumbleft:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:40 pm

OK, bit of a learning curve today and some lessons were taken away from my time in the workshop.

1) Do not try and over tap when using a brand new 10ba tap, it breaks and makes the cylinder you spent ages making completely worthless and you have to make another one :oops:
2) When waiting for a die to turn up in the post, do not try and pre make the bolts and part them off, wait for the die to turn up and thread them before you part them off, otherwise bad things can happen.
3) Read the instructions, then read them again, then put them down and pick them up later and read them again before you make any parts, otherwise you will be making more parts than you thought you would AND you might end up missing making some parts, like only making 2 crank arms instead of 3 :oops:
4) When drilling something that needs 2 holes, do not remove it from the vice and try to centre it again, chance are you will end up remaking that part, again and again!

Tap broken off in one of the cylinders.

Image

Right, the bad bits out the way, I managed to get the cylinders finished, despite having to remake one of them, they are now all bored out, shaped, front caps made, rear ends make and tapped (though the do need another 10ba hole drilling), just waiting on the 10ba bolts to turn up in the post before they can be put together.

The chassis spacers have been made, drilled and tapped and fit very nicely to the chassis side plates.

Two of the four crank arms have been made (error on reading instructions), so just two more to make at some point, but they went well, drilled, reamed, tapped and shaped, they took some time to file to shape!

Some pictures below covering the parts made so far and the various stages they are at.

Broken parts to the right of the chassis plates.

http://www.pictures.strickson.com:8080/ ... b6b-me.jpg



Parts made so far

Image



Start of the footplate being on the making, lots and lots of work to do on that before it looks like the final product!

Image



Trying to show the home made 10ba bolts for the cranks and the other little bits made, very small but still take quite some time to make :) The bars with the milled ends and the two holes in have been remade, again!

Image
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:29 am

Very good Steve. You'll get a feel for how much force a 10BA tap can take.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:26 am

dewintondave wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:29 am Very good Steve. You'll get a feel for how much force a 10BA tap can take.
I knew I was on the limits as it started that "squeak" that you get in brass as it starts to bottom out, I just thought I had about a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn left, I was wrong, lol.

Dave, what is the strength difference between a carbon steel tap and a HSS tap? Seems to be quite a price difference so would it help prevent this kind of thing?
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by FWLR » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:58 am

-steves- wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:26 am
dewintondave wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:29 am Very good Steve. You'll get a feel for how much force a 10BA tap can take.
I knew I was on the limits as it started that "squeak" that you get in brass as it starts to bottom out, I just thought I had about a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn left, I was wrong, lol.

Dave, what is the strength difference between a carbon steel tap and a HSS tap? Seems to be quite a price difference so would it help prevent this kind of thing?
Good job Steve, lots done. You are experiencing what most of us have done....Just that little bit more will do it. :roll: :roll:

You will find Steve, that carbon steel is the much older material that was used for machining and especially taps. High Speed Steel (HSS) is that it can withstand higher temperatures without losing its temper (hardness).

Keep with it Steve, your'e doing a great job and it's all a learning curve. Don't get disheartened with mishaps, let them inspire you to be an engineer that is proud of his/her work. Remember Steve, you don't need qualifications to be regarded has someone who can do the job.

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:17 am

I always buy carbon steel Steve, it's good for what we do. I jumped scales so I could wave goodbye to 10 BA :D
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:55 pm

-steves- wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:40 pm OK, bit of a learning curve today and some lessons were taken away from my time in the workshop.
Einstein is supposed to have said 'A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new'. The model engineering equivalent is probably the box of scrap parts we all accumulate over time. Welcome to the club.......


I usually use carbon steel BA taps for both brass and steel, as much as anything, it's hard to find HSS ones locally. Both types will break if given too much side load, or are overtorqued, as any steel hard enough to be used as a cutting tool is also brittle.

How are you using your taps?

One of the first things I made on the then new lathe was the little tailstock tap holder that is described by Brian Wilson in his book 'Steam Trains in Your Garden' at the start of Chapter 1. The same section of the book has a few paras. on tapping holes and threading parts that contains useful information. Brian is as averse to breaking taps as I am.....

I use the tap holder for tapping all my 10BA and 8BA threaded holes in both brass and steel. The tailstock die holder I made from the same drawing also gets a lot of use. The tap holder works in any chuck, so I use it in the bench drill and/or mill as well, for tapping blocks, sheet metal, etc. Being small it is difficult to apply too much force and it gives you a more sensitive feel for how the tap is cutting. Also important is that it keeps the tap running straight with little risk of bending and snapping it.

I only use conventional tap and die holders for larger threads such as pipe fittings, boiler bushes, etc. I try to only thread components in the mill or the lathe where I can use a plunger tapping guide to keep everything in line.

The other thing I always use is a cutting fluid, in brass and especially in steel. I think I've used about 5ml in the last 8 years, you don't need much.

It's courting fate I know, but I can honestly say I've only broken three small taps (one was a 10BA) in the last 8 years since I changed scale. I use a lot of 10BA screws in my models and the 10BA tap had probably threaded a couple of hundred holes before it broke, so I guess I got my money's worth out of it. :roll:

At least brass gives you an audible warning that it is about to jam a tap or a drill. Steel isn't so accommodating.....

Regards,
Graeme

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