Sandstone and Termite

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philipy
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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by philipy » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:33 am

Good job, Greg. From the photo is hard to tell which are the renewed ones if we didn't know.

Interesting that your frogs are styrene, and clearly haven't worn significantly with 20 years use. Quite surprising.

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by gregh » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:56 am

philipy wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:33 am
Interesting that your frogs are styrene, and clearly haven't worn significantly with 20 years use. Quite surprising.
Well there's not really a lot to wear them on our models. I have no heavy steamies with metal wheels, all my wagons have plastic wheels. And the guard/check rails should keep wheels away from the actual frog 'point' anyhow.
A related aspect is that in our models, there is no need for the check rails adjacent to the frog. (dotted yellow lines in pic)
turnout capt.jpg
I assume in the real word they provide extra strength. In our models they perform no 'check' type function to force the wheels away from the frog.
So in my later turnouts I left them off.
The check rails adjacent to the outside running rails are the important ones.
Greg from downunder.
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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by Soar Valley Light » Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:12 pm

Nice work Greg, it's not often a bit of retimbering ends up in culvert construction!

You make an interesting point (pardon the pun!) about the rails alongside the crossing vee. In the construction of built up crossings (i.e. those assembled with bolts through the rails suitably held at the right distance apart by spacer blocks) the point and splice rail (forming the vee) were bolted together, the rails leading up to the vee from the front were bent and extended alongside the vee to allow the vee and the rails in front of them to be held in the correct alignment to each other. As far as I'm aware that was the only function of the wings and I'm not aware they performed any 'checking' purpose under normal circumstances. As you quite correctly say, it's the check rails opposite the crossing which are vital for the purposes of keeping the flanges on the right side of the vee. The distance from the back of the this check rail to the gauge face of the crossing nose is arguably the most vital dimension on a turnout of any gauge or scale.

The thing I'd never considered was that these wings were perpetuated in cast monobloc crossings. The casting is only about a quarter the thickness of a rail but it is there nonetheless, forming a flangeway of similar size to a grooved rail used in tramway construction. The existence of a flangeway provides an opportunity for an obstruction to occur, with potentially disasterous repercussions, so why perpetuate it in the cast crossing design? I don't have an answer but I shall be asking questions at work to see if I can find out why this was done.

As previously stated in another thread, there's always something new for those of us who find permanent way fascinating. :roll: :mrgreen:

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by gregh » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:43 am

That is an interesting Reply Andrew. Thanks for the info. Despite sitting in the same room as the track Engineers for a few years I never thought to ask about wing rails either.
I wonder if their continued use in monobloc turnouts is an example of just blindly following past practice without wondering WHY?
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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by GTB » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:15 am

gregh wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:43 am
That is an interesting Reply Andrew. Thanks for the info. Despite sitting in the same room as the track Engineers for a few years I never thought to ask about wing rails either.
I wonder if their continued use in monobloc turnouts is an example of just blindly following past practice without wondering WHY?
FWIW....

It's my understanding that both check rails and wing rails have a function in a conventional turnout and it depends on which direction the wheel is passing through the V-crossing.

Check rails are needed only in the facing direction and are there to guide the wheel set so the wheel flange doesn't hit the nose of the V, or go through the wrong flangeway, with the usual spectacular, but undesirable results.

Wing rails perform a more obscure purpose in the trailing direction and are used to guide the wheel so the outer part of the tread is properly supported through the throat of the v-crossing as it passes from the nose of the crossing to the knee of the wing rail.

The attached scans are how the function of the wing rail is explained in the 1947 edition of the VRI (Victorian Railways Institute) 'Permanent Way Correspondence Course' books, which was used for teaching track gang labourers who aspired to become gangers.

Wing rails1.jpg
Wing rails2.jpg

Both volumes of the VRI course text can be downloaded as scans from Mark Bau's website for anyone interested, there's a lot of general information in there, although most is VR specific. The full scan links are at the top of the following page.

http://www.victorianrailways.net/infast ... thome.html

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by Soar Valley Light » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:22 am

Hello Graham,

Thanks for sharing that information. It makes perfect sense. The greater the surface area of contact between wheel and rail the less the wear will be on the reduced section rail of the crossing vee, it will also reduce the amount of wear on the knuckle of the wing rail. Both these are significant issues in heavily trafficked turnouts, especially in these days of restricted access to weld repair crossings.

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All the best,

Andrew
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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by ge_rik » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:29 pm

Of course, you could always do away with frogs entirely, as with Greg's swivelling points or this sliding point on the Snaefell Mountain Railway. I assume the point was needed to allow for continuity with the Fell third rail.
V Bradley Collection 4-26 30-Sept-1964 IOM Snaefell MR Laxey sliding turnout looking up with railcar No1 approaching Neg No 8166.jpg
(Source: NGRS Vic Bradley Collection - 30/9/1964)

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:40 pm

That's a clever bit of mechanical engineering with four sections operated from one lever but throwing at different lengths simultaneously. I imagine the tram operator/guard would have to do this on demand?
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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by gregh » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:04 am

GTB wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:15 am

FWIW....

It's my understanding that both check rails and wing rails have a function in a conventional turnout and it depends on which direction the wheel is passing through the V-crossing.

Check rails are needed only in the facing direction and are there to guide the wheel set so the wheel flange doesn't hit the nose of the V, or go through the wrong flangeway, with the usual spectacular, but undesirable results.

Wing rails perform a more obscure purpose in the trailing direction and are used to guide the wheel so the outer part of the tread is properly supported through the throat of the v-crossing as it passes from the nose of the crossing to the knee of the wing rail.

The attached scans are how the function of the wing rail is explained in the 1947 edition of the VRI (Victorian Railways Institute) 'Permanent Way Correspondence Course' books, which was used for teaching track gang labourers who aspired to become gangers.

Both volumes of the VRI course text can be downloaded as scans from Mark Bau's website for anyone interested, there's a lot of general information in there, although most is VR specific. The full scan links are at the top of the following page.

Regards,
Graeme
That's very interesting Graeme. Thanks for taking the time to explain. (sorry I took so long to reply.)
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by gregh » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:05 am

Springtime is arriving down under, so four of us had a train run. And when the showers started we retired inside, had a good chat and a bit of a 'feast'.
Just as a reminder, all the trains are scratchbuilt and radio controlled.
This is my tram style loco built on a Hartland Mack motor block, hauling Mark's sugar cane train, on the big trestle.
The background shows the Bird of Paradise flowers.
DSCN1851.JPG

Geof's model of a Queensland DH class shunts at Sandstone station
DSCN1856.JPG

My Lexie loco is actually a cadbury purple colour but shows more blue in the photo. It matches the wisteria nicely. It's built on a Piko motor block.
DSCN1857.JPG


and there is a short video....

Greg from downunder.
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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by philipy » Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:16 am

Very nice Greg, thanks. I particularky like the perfect 'majestic' speed of the diesel in the video,

Just out of interest, the only times I've personally ever seen sugar cane being transported was in Egypt and there it is moved still green, so I was surprised to see the loads in your pictures apparently in the dried state, but I assume this is how it is done in your part of the world? Dried in the field presumably?

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by gregh » Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:29 am

philipy wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:16 am
Very nice Greg, thanks. I particularky like the perfect 'majestic' speed of the diesel in the video,

Just out of interest, the only times I've personally ever seen sugar cane being transported was in Egypt and there it is moved still green, so I was surprised to see the loads in your pictures apparently in the dried state, but I assume this is how it is done in your part of the world? Dried in the field presumably?
Interesting that you say that Philip. I wondered the same thing, but a search for Australian cane railways images on the web, shows the cut cane is brown, but not quite the same as Mark's which are broom straws. (maybe we need to wait for GAP to tells us - he lives in sugar cane country. The nearest cane to me is 500miles away)
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by FWLR » Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:56 am

Love your Hartland Mack Greg, especially the colour.
Rod

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by gregh » Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:07 am

More BORING maintenance work.

The reversing loops inside the train room are controlled by an automatic turnout. Light dependent resistors between the rails detect the trains and set the turnout accordingly. This was my first attempt at remote control and I used a couple of 'on-hand' chunky solenoids. A Picaxe controls the energisation of each solenoid. Over the years the mounting wood has rotted so I had to replace. The solenoids are 30V, 2A so I used big transistors to drive them - only energised for a second - mounted in that little plastic box.
Pretty ugly but it works.
turnout control caption.jpg
The LDR shown here is to detect a train over the turnout so as not to move them while 'occupied'.
(That's a piece of clear plastic in the tunnel forming the slide up 'door' to the outside.)


Next job was the lifting bridge over the doorway to the train room.
It is still the same 2x2" wood frame from 1994, although starting to rot. The original in 1994 had a fibro top and it lasted till 2013 when it had cracked so much I replaced it with Masonite - not a good idea. It only lasted 7 years. So I now have used two, 1.5mm thicknesses of styrene for the top, well painted. (original aluminium track still OK) One thing I did right in the original was to mount the track at the 2 ends on fixed, flat aluminium plates,(not the fibro / masonite) so I didn't have to touch them and the track lines up at both ends.
Most of time the bridge is folded back so the underside gets all the sun and rain and that caused the masonite to rot. So now I have also covered the underside with corrflute. Here's the composite pic showing it open and closed.
bridge open and closed.jpg
Note the safety 'gate' at the left end. When running trains, it swings over/along the bridge so the bridge then cannot be lifted without putting the gate back across the track.
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm

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Re: Sandstone and Termite

Post by ge_rik » Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:40 am

That point at the entrance to the reverse loop looks interesting, Greg. Scratchbuilt?

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