Fn3 and SM45

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Fn3 and SM45

Post by ge_rik » Wed May 05, 2021 1:05 pm

I thought it might be interesting to start a thread devoted to Fn3 and SM45 scales.
  • Fn3 is 15mm:1ft on 45mm gauge track (1:20.3 scale) - representing 3' narrow gauge
  • SM45 is 16mm:1ft on 45mm gauge track (1:19 scale) - representing (roughly) 2'9" narrow gauge
My railway is supposedly Fn3 scale - but my scale ruler is somewhat elastic and so some of my models are SM45. I am tending to veer much more towards Fn3 scale now and so, eventually, I might phase out some of my less accurate models.

I'll certainly be interested in hearing from anyone else who works in these scales or is planning to.

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Peter Butler » Wed May 05, 2021 2:51 pm

Rik, can you show examples from your collection which you think show the difference to any great degree?
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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by ge_rik » Wed May 05, 2021 4:04 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:51 pm Rik, can you show examples from your collection which you think show the difference to any great degree?
Interesting question, Peter. I'm not sure if I can but I'll scratch my head a bit. I know I constructed one of my Southwold locos to 15mm scale and the other to 16mm scale because the scales best suited the dimensions of the donor chassis I was using. In between showers, I'll try taking a photo of them side by side, but I doubt there will be much difference evident. The prototypical loco I constructed in 15mm scale was larger than the other - and so side by side they probably won't look too different. Only a connoisseur of the Southwold would probably notice there ought to be a bigger difference.

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Old Man Aaron » Wed May 12, 2021 7:42 am

An interesting thread, Rik. Seems our experiences hold some parallels.

Initially, I modelled in Fn3 scale, as my first loco, an Accucraft Ruby, was advertised as a "Freelance 1/20th scale model based on 3ft gauge Baldwin prototypes". This loco and gauge were chosen based on cost and availability here in Australia, and the much higher number of people running 45mm track, over a mere handful of 32mm lines in the country. My early scratch-built locos and stock were also this scale, but modelling 3ft gauge isn't quite appropriate for a Queensland sugar cane operation, which have always been 2ft.

My first scratch-built loco was based on a 2ft prototype, but the model was "stretched" to 3ft/Fn3, representing a "what-if" 3ft gauge rebuild. The model in the photo below, sitting on the coupling of it's full-scale equivalent, you'll see is proportionally wider than the real thing. (Apologies for the picture size, it was taken from my blog and I've yet to resize the photos on there)
Image

Thus, 3ft was a compromise to suit the Ruby, and the idea was that my line was a rare example of 3ft gauge in Australia. But, as Queensland's mainline railway system is 3'6", I eventually realised that modelling 3ft meant that the locomotives and stock would be hardly any smaller than the "full-size" mainline equipment, next to 1:20th scale figures, buildings and vehicles - hardly appropriate for a cane tramway, their equipment being scarcely larger than Welsh quarry stock.


Funnily enough Rik, I've also changed scales, but have moved in the opposite direction to you.
These days I build everything to 1:19/16mm scale/SM45, wanting to model 2ft, but still limited to working with 45mm gauge track, as I don't want to lose the track, locos and stock, into which I've already invested so many thousands of hours and dollars.. Although the few 2'6" lines in Australia were never cane tramways, a couple ran through cane country.. So I've settled on using a rubber ruler as well, and calling my line 2ft 6in gauge. This works well enough with the 1:20th loco pictured above, though 16mm scale figures and 1:18 scale road vehicles really help support the illusion, making the trains and their gauge look a little smaller, and closer to 2'6". Maintaining a good quality of finish, high detail and weathering everything, makes an effective distraction from any scale and gauge discrepancies, too.


Whilst we're talking scale, funnily enough, the 16mm Roundhouse locos I have, (Innisfail and Bundaberg Fowlers respectively) aren't actually 16mm scale - they're between 1:19 and 1:20, slightly closer to 1:20 in fact! I know this, as I volunteer at the heritage line with both these locomotives' prototypes, and have measured those locos and compared them to the models. I have a sneaking suspicion the Accucraft Baguley is also this way..

Even so, most of my models are close enough in size and scale, that they don't look out of place in any combination with each other. The only thing that would have been an exception, was that I did have my cane bins laser-cut to 1:22 scale. Because, as the supposedly 1:19 mock-up shows, they would've absolutely dwarfed everything else. In real life, these 4-ton cane bins look much more like the 1:22 model came out. Go figure.
Image

I do wish I'd have gone for SM32 to begin with, it would've looked a lot better for what I'm trying to do. I'm too deep into 45mm to change now, but with the handy rubber ruler, as long as my freelance operation looks about right, I for one, am content to call it 2ft6in.
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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by ge_rik » Wed May 12, 2021 8:01 am

Interesting. Did you consider 7/8 (SE) scale (1:13.7) at any point? There seem to be an increasing range of accessories available but it would involve a fair amount of scratchbuilding. This would give you 2' gauge on 45mm, which may be a step too far.

I suppose you could invent your own scale to represent 2' 6" gauge ..... 18mm:1ft = 1:16.9 (call it 1:17) ...... :lol:

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by DonW » Wed May 12, 2021 11:01 pm

This can be very confusing among my models I have an LBSC Terrier and a GWR Dock Tank both in 7mm scale both fairly accurate. However the Terrier looks for all the world as though it is to a smaller scale.
I use 16mm on 32 mm track but I am less sure about the bought in models. I haven't measured up Taliesin, Countess or Dolgoch. I suspect there are some fudges going on but I can live with that in ignorance. I am thinking though perhaps each needs a train of appropriately sized coaches otherwise running FR coaches with the Countess may not look that right. The same with other combinations.
Whether to have the stock all to a common scale and ignore the different gauges or have all the stuff to the right scales for my 32mm gaauge ? There is no right answer it is down to personal choice.

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Old Man Aaron » Thu May 13, 2021 2:31 am

Never really considered 7/8ths. I didn't have the skills to scratchbuild live steam bodywork at the time, didn't want to scratchbuild everything, and to date have never had the space. Though if I were starting over, I'd seriously look at finescale modelling the Mapleton Tramway in 7/8ths.
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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Jimmyb » Thu May 13, 2021 8:06 am

I run on 45mm track, and have 22.5:1 (G Gauge), 20.3:1 (Fn3), 19:1 (16mm) but it often to determine the true scale. My railbus for example is supposedly 16mm, but I found 16mm figures to large and have used Fn3 figures. Unlike some of the superb modellers on here, I model what i like, and what looks right (to me), and sometimes it does not always work out as planned, but I am content :)

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Lonsdaler » Thu May 13, 2021 11:33 am

DonW wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:01 pm This can be very confusing among my models I have an LBSC Terrier and a GWR Dock Tank both in 7mm scale both fairly accurate. However the Terrier looks for all the world as though it is to a smaller scale.
I use 16mm on 32 mm track but I am less sure about the bought in models. I haven't measured up Taliesin, Countess or Dolgoch. I suspect there are some fudges going on but I can live with that in ignorance. I am thinking though perhaps each needs a train of appropriately sized coaches otherwise running FR coaches with the Countess may not look that right. The same with other combinations.
Whether to have the stock all to a common scale and ignore the different gauges or have all the stuff to the right scales for my 32mm gaauge ? There is no right answer it is down to personal choice.

Don
As you say yourself Don, it is down to personal choice. Unless one wants to faithfully model a particular railway, the differences in size/scale are not really an issue. Even if you look at photos of 'real' trains from different lines and eras, there is often a mishmash of varying rooflines Image (from page https://www.snowdonia360.com/member/ffe ... d-railway/) even with trains of supposedly the same type of rolling stock Image (from page https://www.festrail.co.uk/appeal/snowdonian.html).
This allows us to run a mix of carriages/rolling stock from different manufacturers. My only steam engines are a Ragleth and a Decauville 0-4-0 - you couldn't get a more apparent difference in size, and yet both are supposedly 16mm:foot.
On that basis trains like this look right to me!
Image
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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by ge_rik » Thu May 13, 2021 2:41 pm

Great set of photos which illustrate the point well. In narrow gauge, almost anything goes ..... :D

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Lonsdaler » Thu May 13, 2021 3:31 pm

ge_rik wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:41 pm Great set of photos which illustrate the point well. In narrow gauge, almost anything goes ..... :D

Rik
Indeed Rik, to me it's one of the most endearing things about modelling in this scale. :thumbup:
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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Tingewickmax » Thu May 13, 2021 5:09 pm

I started 18 years ago with a real mix up of track powered 1:29 US outline and 1:22.5 Euro narrow gauge. Slowly but surely I found myself switching to US outline Fn3, both D&RGW and geared logging locos. By now I am running a mix of track power and live steam. At the same time a 16 mm scale strand was forming to feature UK & Colonial types, principally live steam but with some rc/battery power content. Now I find myself settled on these two scales with mostly "prototypical" stock formed in similarly, hopefully, suitable consists. The one common factor - I am still using the same LGB 45 mm code 332 track system I started out with. The fact that the 16 mm scale product manufacturers realised making models that could be readily reguaged between two standards, 32/45 mm was more viable and conducive to sales, only made it easier to indulge myself with very different types of prototypes. The final change - the eradication of track power with the conversion of those track powered locos to rc/battery operation. Max

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by FWLR » Fri May 14, 2021 9:18 am

Being still very new to 16mm as some member's know, I really don't have much clue as to what scale and gauges are, except for 32mm and 45mm track gauge. So what I build is what I think is right and if it is smaller or bigger it doesn't really bother me, of course there are the really small models that really are tiny compared to the main manufacturers. I am in the finishing stages of building a JW15 Diesel 3d printed loco for my new grandson, coming on for 2 years old in July. It is minuscule compared to most of my other rolling stock and locos, even some of them are small, just like an HGLW "Wittenberg Schafer" which is tiny put alongside other stuff, but I like it and when I also can get outside in-between showers, I will take some photos of them together.

Didn't know about Fn3 or what scale to the foot it was, that's got me even more confused...... :roll:

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by ge_rik » Sat May 15, 2021 9:47 am

FWLR wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:18 am Being still very new to 16mm as some member's know, I really don't have much clue as to what scale and gauges are, except for 32mm and 45mm track gauge. So what I build is what I think is right and if it is smaller or bigger it doesn't really bother me, of course there are the really small models that really are tiny compared to the main manufacturers. I am in the finishing stages of building a JW15 Diesel 3d printed loco for my new grandson, coming on for 2 years old in July. It is minuscule compared to most of my other rolling stock and locos, even some of them are small, just like an HGLW "Wittenberg Schafer" which is tiny put alongside other stuff, but I like it and when I also can get outside in-between showers, I will take some photos of them together.

Didn't know about Fn3 or what scale to the foot it was, that's got me even more confused...... :roll:
Not worth worrying about, Rod. You just run whatever feels right for you. As you're running on 32mm track, most of what you're running is 16mm:1ft (1:19) scale giving you two foot gauge track which his what most of the Welsh narrow gauge railways used (but not all - eg Welshpool & Llanfair).

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by FWLR » Sun May 16, 2021 6:23 am

Thanks Rik, it is good to know that if members can get some more information on scales, helps them with their interest in our hobby.

There are people who come on to our site to explore and get some information because they are thinking of getting into 16mm garden railways. Maybe someone who has more knowledge than I can put a thread on the Help and Information page, so anyone can access it for help in choosing what could be what they are looking for...Just a thought... :dontknow:

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Tingewickmax » Sun May 16, 2021 10:11 am

FWLR wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:23 am Thanks Rik, it is good to know that if members can get some more information on scales, helps them with their interest in our hobby.

There are people who come on to our site to explore and get some information because they are thinking of getting into 16mm garden railways. Maybe someone who has more knowledge than I can put a thread on the Help and Information page, so anyone can access it for help in choosing what could be what they are looking for...Just a thought... :dontknow:
If you are not already a member, or do not have his publication, could I recommend this - https://www.16mm.org.uk/publications/th ... modelling/ Supplied free to new 16 mm NGM members it's worth the joining fee on its own and covers a lot regarding relative scales/gauges/resulting sizes of model/prototype. And quite a few other things aside.

In my experience the use of the term "Fn3" is usually used in conjunction with US prototypes. "15 mm" usually denotes we are in the IoM or Irish teritories, or possibly Southwold (another scale story here apparently). With "1:20.3" we might be edging into the land of "freelance". All 3 foot gauge and the same scale. :lol: So if one converts, and there are a few examples here, a bona fide Fn3 model of a 3 ft gauged geared loco to 32 mm gauge have we now created a new sub division - FM 32 :D Max

By the way, another example of how small a loco can actually be in relation to another, similarly correctly scaled, item that it pulled in real life. There are constant comments that the loco depicted here is under scale. It is not.
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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by -steves- » Sun May 16, 2021 12:01 pm

I must admit I am a 16mm ish modeller. Anything narrow gauge goes, any era, steam diesel, I just don't care, I just do it for the passion. If one loco is a different scale to another, so be it, the coaches and wagons vary so much in size and height there is always something to put behind any sized loco.

The JW15 that Rod mentioned is indeed a tiny loco, but if you look at the pictures in real life, it is indeed a very tiny loco and an average person is way bigger than it and can only just cram into the cab. Also take the Corris railway number 9, I have never seen anything as funny as a person levering their way into the crunched up cab, it makes me chuckle, but in a good way.

A great example here. Number 9 is the little yellow one for anyone that is not aware.

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by philipy » Sun May 16, 2021 2:15 pm

In a similar vein, my Wickham trolley next to the Baguely diesel.
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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by FWLR » Mon May 17, 2021 8:47 am

Tingewickmax wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:11 am
FWLR wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:23 am Thanks Rik, it is good to know that if members can get some more information on scales, helps them with their interest in our hobby.

There are people who come on to our site to explore and get some information because they are thinking of getting into 16mm garden railways. Maybe someone who has more knowledge than I can put a thread on the Help and Information page, so anyone can access it for help in choosing what could be what they are looking for...Just a thought... :dontknow:
If you are not already a member, or do not have his publication, could I recommend this - https://www.16mm.org.uk/publications/th ... modelling/ Supplied free to new 16 mm NGM members it's worth the joining fee on its own and covers a lot regarding relative scales/gauges/resulting sizes of model/prototype. And quite a few other things aside.
I am a member and I have been since I started my journey into 16mm garden railways 6 years ago, blimey (6 YEARS) still a youngster.. :lol: :lol: but I never got one of those publications..

Still not to worry, I enjoy the information we get from the members who are more knowledgeable and we can some times give back little tips or help also. It is a two way thing that makes our forum the best in my opinion....

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Re: Fn3 and SM45

Post by Jimmyb » Mon May 17, 2021 8:55 am

FWLR wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:47 am
Tingewickmax wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:11 am
FWLR wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:23 am Thanks Rik, it is good to know that if members can get some more information on scales, helps them with their interest in our hobby.

There are people who come on to our site to explore and get some information because they are thinking of getting into 16mm garden railways. Maybe someone who has more knowledge than I can put a thread on the Help and Information page, so anyone can access it for help in choosing what could be what they are looking for...Just a thought... :dontknow:
If you are not already a member, or do not have his publication, could I recommend this - https://www.16mm.org.uk/publications/th ... modelling/ Supplied free to new 16 mm NGM members it's worth the joining fee on its own and covers a lot regarding relative scales/gauges/resulting sizes of model/prototype. And quite a few other things aside.
I am a member and I have been since I started my journey into 16mm garden railways 6 years ago, blimey (6 YEARS) still a youngster.. :lol: :lol: but I never got one of those publications..

Still not to worry, I enjoy the information we get from the members who are more knowledgeable and we can some times give back little tips or help also. It is a two way thing that makes our forum the best in my opinion....
Rod you should have received one last year, they were sent out automatically to all 16 mm members.

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