Canada

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Keith S
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Canada

Post by Keith S » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:10 am

Here is an example of one of the many obstacles encountered in Canada. I am probably the only current member of this forum who cares one bit about this, but I find it immensely frustrating. This "product liability" folklore is really making me angry! It is absolutely not a real thing with respect to Canada. It's just the result of lazy, bigoted insurance lawyers who can't be bothered to understand that the United States and Canada ARE NOT THE SAME PLACE. I'm sure if #@$*)($ ROUNDHOUSE can ship a #)&(&(# BOILER to Canada, then a set of little plastic bloody BRAKE SHOES can't be that much of a $$#@@(#!!! problem!!!

Hi *****,

This is an old wive's tale I have encountered a few times: that "product liability" problems in the United States have anything to do with those in Canada. The United States is an incredibly litigious environment, and it is adviseable to avoid doing business there. Canada however is actually a completely separate country, and we have no more product liability laws than the United Kingdom or any other European country. Unfortunately this is but one of the ways my country suffers under the shadow of the United States' global perfidy. It's a pity too, because my brake van needs some brake shoes. Which I suppose wouldn't be much of a sale for you.

We are all members of the British Commonwealth. This is very disappointing.

Sincerely

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 29, 2018, at 4:36 PM, *****@*********.co.uk> wrote:

Hi,

We previously ran β€œ******** Models”, which we sold last year. Our insurers then, would not cover product liability for the USA or Canada, unless we paid an additional premium which was more than the value of sales.

Some people have got round this, by having items delivered to a UK address, though this would, of course, involve more postage.

Regards,

*****,
**** Goods.
On 29 Nov 2018, at 19:29, Keith Shergold <shergold.k@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Keith Shergold
Email: shergold.k@gmail.com
Country: Canada
who asked:
Hi, I would like to inquire as to why you are not able to supply goods to Canada. Surely it can't be any more odious than Australia!

Thanks




I would like to order these 16mm scale items. Please send me a Paypal Invoice

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Re: Canada

Post by FWLR » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:37 am

Hi Keith,

I understand I think. What company is doing this to your country. Is is all companies. It would upset me also if I had to pay extra for something that is only worth pennies. That happens a lot if I was to buy anything from America. So I tend to only buy, if I ever do from people there that pay import and postage charges.

I don't have any brake shoes, otherwise I would send them to you.

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Re: Canada

Post by Keith S » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:09 am

Well, I wouldn't like to say, as it is not the manufacturer's fault, it's their "insurers", whoever they are.

And it's not all suppliers: I've happily ordered from Roundhouse, Brandbright, I.P. Engineering, D.J.B., Summerland, and Swift Sixteen with no issues, yet there are some who oersist in believing there is some liability issue. There may well be some liability issue for Americans, but whenever I hear this unwillingness to ship to Canada it's always "the USA and Canada" as though the two places had anything to do with one another legally. They don't!... other than sharing the same wretched continent.

I had this discussion with Mr. Riverdale boilers at the last Peterborough show, and he was utterly intracteable, which culminated in me telling him that my locomotive will stay happily gas-fired until I get a little better at silver-soldering, at which time I will merrily pirate his very simple two-flue dry-backed boiler design for myself, and any other Canadian who wants one. :evil:

I'll even call my new business "Riverdale Boilers", and capitalize on the fact that Mr. Riverdale doesn't believe he has any recourse to the law in Canada...

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Re: Canada

Post by Dwayne » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:04 pm

As a Canadian who lives in the US (I have dual citizenship), the reality is that Canada doesn't matter (most 'Murikans don't know a thing about the GWN). Throughout the year there is a flow of products arriving at our place here in OKC that my wife (who is from Sudbury ON) takes home with her on her annual sojourn back to the GWN to deliver to her family members who order products in the US that aren't able to be sold or shipped to Canada but use our address as a place to have items shipped.

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Re: Canada

Post by IrishPeter » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:41 pm

I have never had the liability routine from a supplier in the UK, but I have run into one or two who will not ship to the USA and Canada simply because they believe they have had too much stuff go missing in transit. One observation I would make is that UK to North America shipping times are often painfully slow - three to seven weeks - which can lead one to believe that stuff is AWOL that in fact is sitting in customs waiting to be cleared. Right now, I am unlikely to order anything from the UK until at least mid-January as anything I order now is likely to show up about the same time as something I order in early January!

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Canada

Post by TonyW » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:36 pm

I'm a UK-based trader and I have happily done work for valued customers in both Canada and the USA. Many locos have crossed the Atlantic and come here on a "temporary import for repair" basis, so no duty is payable. I have no issue at all with doing this work but perhaps I have side-stepped the "Our insurers ... would not cover product liability for the USA or Canada" by not having any product liability insurance cover.

Well done for taking on Mr Riverdale. You are not alone.
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Re: Canada

Post by Keith S » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:45 pm

Thanks guys for letting me have a little rant. I feel better now.

I have to remember sometimes that I deliberately chose to partake in a hobby that is not based in the country in which I live. All things considered, it's not been as inconvenient as one might have reason to expect.

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Re: Canada

Post by FWLR » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:09 am

Does one good Keith, to let off "Steam" (Pun Intended) now and again. πŸš‚πŸšƒπŸšƒπŸšƒπŸšƒπŸšƒπŸšƒπŸšƒπŸšƒπŸšƒ

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Re: Canada

Post by tom_tom_go » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:03 pm

Had the complete opposite experience with Joep who is the owner of Riverdale Locomotives but then I guess that's what happens when you bring something new to this hobby and are not part of the old guard you get treated negatively because you are rocking the boat...

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Re: Canada

Post by TonyW » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:23 pm

tom_tom_go wrote: ↑Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:03 pm... I guess that's what happens when you bring something new to this hobby and are not part of the old guard you get treated negatively because you are rocking the boat...
If rocking the boat means losing sales then I guess you are correct. He's lost two that I know of (because I was going to build them!) and no amount of negotiation or waiving of liability would change anything, and that is a shame for those people who want one of his excellent products but happen to live in what appears to be the "wrong" part of the world.
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Keith S
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Re: Canada

Post by Keith S » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:22 pm

tom_tom_go wrote: ↑Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:03 pm Had the complete opposite experience with Joep who is the owner of Riverdale Locomotives but then I guess that's what happens when you bring something new to this hobby and are not part of the old guard you get treated negatively because you are rocking the boat...
What a silly thing to say. You think I'm discriminating against him? There's no negative treatment on my end. I wanted to order a coal fired boiler and his boilers are certainly fit for purpose aren't they. I was told he won't ship one to Canada because his insurers consider it a liability risk, which is false.

Perhaps I could obtain one by having it shipped first to an address in the U.K- I have many family members there and I am in London and Bedfordshire at least twice a year. But there is a principle here and I shouldn't have to go to that trouble. Joep is losing sales because of a belief he has that is a false belief, and when I asked him about it he wasn't interested in hearing the truth and frankly was dismissive. I seem to remember he even made some kind of comment about not shipping a boiler to England if he had reason to suspect it was going to be sent on to Canada. And this is all because of some fear his insurers have over a product liability problem in a country that ISN'T EVEN THE COUNTRY IN QUESTION. I ordered a boiler from Roundhouse and they just put it in a box and sent it. And frankly, they'll do that even if it IS the United States.

You can paint me as being unreasonable if you wish Tom, but this is the equivalent of you discovering that I refuse to ship a product to you and the reason I give is "the troubles in Ireland".

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Re: Canada

Post by big-ted » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:46 pm

Weird. I live in Vancouver and have had no problem ordering bits from Roundhouse, Brandbright and GRS. My partner is currently trying to order me a Christmas pressie from Swift Sixteen and, for some bizarre reason, Canada is one of the few countries not listed under the options on the website for which one can obtain an instant shipping quote. The website does say to contact them if the destination isn't listed, but apparently she hasn't received a response yet. Don't think this is anything more sinister than just an IT/admin stall though.

I know Canadian laws around full-size boilers are a bit archaic. As I understand it, steam locos essentially have to have the regular boiler exam done every 5 years, as opposed to the UK's ten. Needless to say this contributes to a lack of operational steam locos as it's tough to recoup the costs of the boiler exam when you can only run the loco for five years in between.

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Re: Canada

Post by Keith S » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:40 pm

Yes Ted, Canada has become a terrible place to run a restored steam locomotive; the Canadian Pacific railway and the Canadian National have both enacted a "no steam" policy whereby steam locomotives are strictly forbidden on any of their tracks, basically marooning the Royal Hudson up there in Squamish. According to what I have read on the internet, even the perfectly serviceable steam locomotive owned by Canadian Pacific themselves has been locked away in a building in Calgary and no-one is allowed to see it, as though it is an embarassment. Now you can see a steam locomotive on a little preserved branch possibly, like the Kettle Valley or the people in Stettler, AB, who are trying to get their magnificent "6060" locomotive's boiler restored so it can resume shuffling forlornly up and down their bit of class 3 branch line. Things have certainly taken a turn for the worse. Unlike in the UK, it's probably impossible to build up the critical mass of interested people required to make a steam operation profitable. Large area and small population I guess.

I've ordered bits from Swift Sixteen in the past with no trouble. What are you up to in Vancouver, garden-railway wise? I live in the NWT, and I have a very small patch of gravel out back of my house I'd like to put some track in, but a very short running season and also a lack of anyone else who would want to participate in running tiny steam trains has my involvement at a very low ebb. I occasionally visit British Columbia, my Dad lives in Victoria and my favourite uncle lives in Vancouver. Maybe one day I could pay you a visit. The only place I've ever seen a 16mm scale train actually running, other than mine, is at the 2017 AGM in Peterborough, when I was in England for work in 2017.

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Re: Canada

Post by big-ted » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:44 am

Ha. Did you read the bit where I said I lived in Vancouver? No way I can afford to own property with a garden here! Fortunately there's the Greater Vancouver Garden Railway Club, who have a portable layout they setup at various locations several times a year, as well as the BC Society of Model Engineers who, along with their extensive 7 1/4 gauge layout, last year opened up a huge 45mm layout as well.

Most people here seem to go in for the 'bigger is better' gauge one stuff, but there's a few of us that like the smaller models.

If you're ever heading out this way, definitely let me know. I'm happy to make introductions, even if I can't offer to host you myself!

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Re: Canada

Post by Keith S » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:00 am

Ha, ha, I love the little "Lady Anne" sitting beside that massive (and smaller scale!) American "Daylight" locomotive!

I will certainly get in touch next time I am out west! I wonder if a Roundhouse engine would set off any bells and whistles in airport security?

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Re: Canada

Post by big-ted » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:24 am

I can assure you it does. I bought my unbuilt kit back from the UK via my mother's place in Spain in my hand luggage the whole way. Needless to say, airport security get a bit scared by a metal pressure vessel in your hand luggage... ;)

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Re: Canada

Post by IrishPeter » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:51 pm

Nice demonstration of why I prefer 5/8th to 3/8th there, Keith! I did briefly consider a Ga.1 light railway for the garden here, but I am too much of a narrow gauge man, and my pockets are a bit shallow.

Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Canada

Post by Keith S » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:45 pm

I know what you mean, Peter. I don't know what I would do if I ever found myself able to afford a Gauge 1 "Royal Hudson". It might turn my railway interests completely the other way, although my lack of any sensible property still makes 16mm scale the most sensible outdoor format for me. But that Hudson, Just to own such a thing!
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Re: Canada

Post by IanC » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:37 pm

Keith S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:45 pm I know what you mean, Peter. I don't know what I would do if I ever found myself able to afford a Gauge 1 "Royal Hudson". It might turn my railway interests completely the other way, although my lack of any sensible property still makes 16mm scale the most sensible outdoor format for me. But that Hudson, Just to own such a thing!
That's a stunning locomotive.
Ian

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Re: Canada

Post by big-ted » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:31 am

The Royal Hudson certainly is a beautiful machine. I hope I get to see it in steam one day but, sadly, I'm not optimistic. It's owned by the Provincial government and, aside from the cost to recommission it, I think it's also fallen victim to politics. The museum in Squamish have a fundraiser going but, as Keith says, there isn't even close to the same level of public interest here that there is in the UK. It's a great shame as a steam-hauled journey between Vancouver and Whistler really could be one of the great train journeys of the world.

It's funny. I'm not sure how much people realise the benefit that rail privatisation has had for steam in the UK. With the infrastructure owned by a common entity with a mandate to provide equal access to all operators, tour operators can run monthly excursions alongside regular commuter and freight services. Here, the tracks are owned by companies whose only interest is moving freight. Would you believe, the municipal governments here lease track time from CP to operate the "West Coast Express" commuter rail service. It's not uncommon for trains to be delayed by ~ 3 hours due to freight trains occupying the track, and the West Coast Express operator has no recourse, since the 'landlord' essentially tells them to go swivel.

I was under the impression that the CP-owned Hudson in Calgary was tied up just due to lack of funding? I thought Hunter Harrison came in as CEO and cut all non-essential expenses. Prior to that, I think it was running CP's annual holiday trains? All this is what I've heard through the rumor-mill as well mind you.

Sorry all. Keith and I have thoroughly digressed into a discussion of Canadiana now... :D

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