Garden Railway Forum

Hi all,

Last November, I went on Joby Carter's excellent week-long signwriting course and, since then, I've knocked up a handful of signs, with more on the way. Naturally, some have a railway theme - here's my latest example:




It's a tricky art to master, and with a san-serif font and no shading etc, there's nowhere for mistakes to hide! Nonetheless, I'm pleased with how it turned out...

I plan to put it up outside, and wonder whether anyone could off any advice on varnish? There seem to be two, opposing, schools of thought - either that varnish helps protect the sign, or that it doesn't, because the weather gets underneath and causes it to deteriorate faster. Any thoughts?

The sign is made of exterior ply and softwood mouldings, treated with Cuprinol wood preserver, and painted with stuff intended for garden use.

I think I might try and do some fancy carriage style lettering next, maybe "FIRST CLASS", although double letters are a challenge, because it's glaringly obvious when they're different, and it's really hard to get "S"s to come out the same!

Cheers,

Andrew

That's really good, sign writing has always been a skill I have envied, simply because it's something that I have tried and just can not do, well done

That looks excellent, Andrew.
I'll have a word with my signwriter mate in the village to find out how he protects his handiwork.

Rik
PS Particular congratulations on the S. I'll bet that letter can be a signwriter's nemesis

-steves- wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:11 pm That's really good, sign writing has always been a skill I have envied, simply because it's something that I have tried and just can not do, well done

Thanks Steve! A week of intensive expert tuition definitely helps!

ge_rik wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:31 pm That looks excellent, Andrew.
I'll have a word with my signwriter mate in the village to find out how he protects his handiwork.

Rik
PS Particular congratulations on the S. I'll bet that letter can be a signwriter's nemesis

Thanks Rik! And yes, I'd really appreciate it it if you could ask your friend, thank you!

"S"s are hard to draw - and I am drawing the letters out by hand at the moment as practice, although I could "cheat" and print them on a computer. Joby's "Old School" - he doesn't allow the use of masking tape either! I find curvy letters easier to paint than straight ones - you can kind of just let the brush do the work, whereas following a straight line accurately is harder, and the results less forgiving...

Excellent work Andrew, it's a skill which deserves to be preserved. Few can match the wonderful artwork associated with the fairgrounds but Joby is a master craftsman and is passing on his experience. I hope the course was well attended.

Brilliant Andrew. I've tried my hand a few times but never been very happy with the results.

Andrew wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:46 pm I'd really appreciate it if you could ask your friend, thank you!

Hi Andrew
Sorry about the delay, but I've not seen him recently and it seems he doesn't check his emails regularly.

His reply ......

Hi Rik if he has used good enamel paint it does not need Varnish , the Varnish becomes Brittle after so long and starts to come off
He has made a brilliant job of it. Peter

Peter was a professional signwriter (and artist) and quite of few of the shop signs in the neighbourhood are his handiwork. They've been there for years so he presumably knows what he's talking about.

Rik

Brilliant, thanks Rik!

Not having a separate workshop, I can't use enamel paints, on account of the need to avoid filling the house with white spirit fumes. I'm using "Alphakrylik", a water-based substitute, but it's supposed to have the same qualities as enamel in terms of coverage and durability, so I'm going to go varnish-less and see what happens. The downside of acrylic is that it doesn't replicate the glorious gloss sheen on enamel - which is where varnish could help. Not much of a problem on this utilitarian sign, but it would notice on something flashier...

I'm very grateful for your friend's kind words about my efforts too - that means a lot!

Thanks again,

Andrew.

Beautiful work! It's not easy to do, but very rewarding.

I'll admit to cheating by making my designs in the computer, then tracing it out. Drawing it by hand isn't something I can do too well on 16mm scale shopfronts. Haven't yet tried it on something larger..

Looking forward to seeing more.

Old Man Aaron wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 3:42 pm Beautiful work! It's not easy to do, but very rewarding.

I'll admit to cheating by making my designs in the computer, then tracing it out. Drawing it by hand isn't something I can do too well on 16mm scale shopfronts. Haven't yet tried it on something larger..

Looking forward to seeing more.

Thanks Aaron!

I don't think that's cheating at all, especially in 16mm scale! My guess is that somewhere between many and most signwriters use computers to create a lot of their original designs, then trace or "pounce" them across to the surface they're painting onto. Joby Carter, whose course I attended, learned the traditional way, from a master signwriter, and that's sort of become his "USP" - the idea that learning to do things slowly, and carefully studying and drawing letter forms, is the best way to learn the skills. I think he'd argue that really mastering those is what makes the difference between a signwriter and someone who just paints signs, if that makes sense? The difference between instinctive creativity and simply "colouring in".

I think he's probably right - when I'm signwriting I try to be mindful of what he taught me, and to use the right techniques, which is why I drew out the letters on that sign. On the other hand, I've got a full time job, a time-consuming hobby, and a busy family/home life, so I'm definitely prepared to compromise!

I'm planning to some numerals next - I haven't done any before, I've got some friends requesting house numbers, and the Clarendon font is calling me! I'm going to try to do a Victorian railway style, with golden yellow numbers on maroon, with a red "block" shadow and a black cast one - I'll post the results here if they're presentable!

Cheers,

Andrew.

PS There's a promo video for Joby's course here, if you're interested. It makes it all look much more serene than the actual course, where the air's thick with both white spirit fumes and Joby's colourful language, and his crazy dog's running around the place!

You're making perfect sense. I agree, and feel I'm in the latter category. At least for now.

Would love to take a course, it would certainly make it easier to learn how to plot things by hand. If only I could afford a trip up there..

Funny the topic of signwriting comes up, I just painted a new shopfront last weekend. Will post once I've weathered it..
And yes, please do post your results! Looking at your previous work, I'm sure it'll be more than presentable.

Hi Andrew,

When my Dad used to get his wagons sign written the guy used to chalk out the sign first and then use that bit of stick that has a piece of cloth wrapped around it. He had many different sizes of those because some letters were really small, like the bottom of the doors on my Dads cabs which had if my memory serves me right.. was Dad's address....

I have seen other sign writers on the telly doing exactly the same way. Do you do it like that also.

FWLR wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 8:47 am Hi Andrew,

When my Dad used to get his wagons sign written the guy used to chalk out the sign first and then use that bit of stick that has a piece of cloth wrapped around it. He had many different sizes of those because some letters were really small, like the bottom of the doors on my Dads cabs which had if my memory serves me right.. was Dad's address....

I have seen other sign writers on the telly doing exactly the same way. Do you do it like that also.

Hi Rod,

Yes, that's the technique. You can draw (or print) a design on paper, then transfer across either by charcoaling the back and tracing, or by pricking lots of little holes and dusting chalk through ("pouncing") - with practice, you could chalk the letters on directly, or even paint them straight on with just chalk lines to keep you level. I'm a long way from that! There's a really cool trick where you "snap" a guide line onto your surface, which involves covering string in chalk, holding it really taut just above where you need it, then kind of pinging it against it to leave a line - I've not tried it, but apparently there's quite a knack to it...

The stick's called a mahl stick - if you're right-handed, you hold one end in your left hand, and rest your right on it at the other. It's partly to stop you smudging work youve just done, but sometimes you also move the stick to control the brush, especially on a long contiuous stroke. It takes some getting used to, but I like the technique.

Small letters are really difficult - so hard to get neat corners in particular...

Cheers,

Andrew.

Andrew wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 11:11 am There's a really cool trick where you "snap" a guide line onto your surface, which involves covering string in chalk, holding it really taut just above where you need it, then kind of pinging it against it to leave a line - I've not tried it, but apparently there's quite a knack to it...

So, does that mean you never do any wallpapering?? Because, using a plumbline, that's how you get a vertical line on a wall to line the edge of the wallpaper to. I've been doing it that way for 50 years and never had any probs ( he says modestly!).
In fact you can actually get plumblines with a built in reservoir to hold the chalk dust.

philipy wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 12:04 pm So, does that mean you never do any wallpapering?? Because, using a plumbline, that's how you get a vertical line on a wall to line the edge of the wallpaper to. I've been doing it that way for 50 years and never had any probs ( he says modestly!).
In fact you can actually get plumblines with a built in reservoir to hold the chalk dust.

It's been 20 years since I've wallpapered (we tend to just go for painted plaster), but when I did I don't think we used anything as hi-tech (!!!) as a plumbline, let alone one with a chalk reservoir! It came out OK, but it was only lining paper for painting uneven walls, no patterns to line up...

philipy wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 12:04 pm
So, does that mean you never do any wallpapering?? Because, using a plumbline, that's how you get a vertical line on a wall to line the edge of the wallpaper to. I've been doing it that way for 50 years and never had any probs ( he says modestly!).
In fact you can actually get plumblines with a built in reservoir to hold the chalk dust.

My dad had/has one of those with the chalk reservoir that he used for all kinds of construction projects. I think he used it almost as much as his measuring tape or L-square, and I don't think I've seen a faster way to mark a straight line across a 4x8 sheet of plywood or drywall. I picked one up after we got our own house and I've mostly used it for marking patio pavers to be scored and split.

Andrew wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 12:56 pm
It's been 20 years since I've wallpapered (we tend to just go for painted plaster), but when I did I don't think we used anything as hi-tech (!!!) as a plumbline, let alone one with a chalk reservoir! It came out OK, but it was only lining paper for painting uneven walls, no patterns to line up...

Sounds like I need one regardless of whether or not I use it for signwriting!

Andrew wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 11:11 am

FWLR wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 8:47 am Hi Andrew,

When my Dad used to get his wagons sign written the guy used to chalk out the sign first and then use that bit of stick that has a piece of cloth wrapped around it. He had many different sizes of those because some letters were really small, like the bottom of the doors on my Dads cabs which had if my memory serves me right.. was Dad's address....

I have seen other sign writers on the telly doing exactly the same way. Do you do it like that also.

Hi Rod,

Yes, that's the technique. You can draw (or print) a design on paper, then transfer across either by charcoaling the back and tracing, or by pricking lots of little holes and dusting chalk through ("pouncing") - with practice, you could chalk the letters on directly, or even paint them straight on with just chalk lines to keep you level. I'm a long way from that! There's a really cool trick where you "snap" a guide line onto your surface, which involves covering string in chalk, holding it really taut just above where you need it, then kind of pinging it against it to leave a line - I've not tried it, but apparently there's quite a knack to it...

The stick's called a mahl stick - if you're right-handed, you hold one end in your left hand, and rest your right on it at the other. It's partly to stop you smudging work youve just done, but sometimes you also move the stick to control the brush, especially on a long contiuous stroke. It takes some getting used to, but I like the technique.

Small letters are really difficult - so hard to get neat corners in particular...

Cheers,

Andrew.

Hi Andrew,

Thats exactly how the guy used to do my Dad's wagons with the chalk line. He also chalked the letters on the cab or where ever Dad wanted anything sign written. Mind you he had been doing it for donkeys years... That was before all the graphics that you can get now.


But for me there isn't anything more beautiful than hand drawn and hand painted letters and graphics.


Good luck in this venture Andrew and hopefully someday you will be doing sign-writing for people who needs a master of this dying art done for themselves