Electric turnout mechanism

[philipy]

I'm sure that quite a long time ago, somebody ( can't remember who) mentioned using electric car window motors for turnout operation. I've been searching but can't find it, can anyone point me in the right direction please?

[tom_tom_go]

I did search and could not find any posts relating to using car electric window motors. Maybe you are thinking of central locking solenoids?

[Big Jim]

Having experience of both (ex motor trade), I would suggest that solenoids would be the better option. There are very few window regulator motors that would be suitable as most are fairly large and draw a high current. Most of the more modern ones (last 15 years or so) are also built in such a way that actually getting the motor off the regulator (the bit that operates the window) and still being able to use it would be difficult.

A lock solenoid could be adapted to use but it would take a bit or searching to find a suitably shaped one as some are part of the lock mech. If you really wanted a challenge and could find enough that still worked, some of the one fitted to 1980's cars were pneumatic rather than electric.

[Peter Butler]

Having gone to the trouble of installing servos to all of my points before assessing the logistics of making them work I then ripped them all out again and found an alternative.
The electric powered system was based on flawed thinking following exhibition display experience where a central control panel is the norm. Outdoors, things are somewhat different as any shunting required coupling/uncoupling on site followed by a trip to the shed where the control panel was sited. Another trip to the train to couple/uncouple is then followed by.... guess what? A real pain in the ar£e !
My new and preferred method is to use a bike cable which can be located in the most practical location to cater for such movements. They are available up to 2.3m long and can be flexed to go underground if required. No electrical issues with moisture either.
This is not going to be a solution in every case but you might find it useful?

[philipy]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

Tom, yes, it may have been locking solenoids. I couldn't really remember except that it was something to do with cars! Thats why I wanted to re-read it.

Peter, I saw your recent post on the subject of brake cables, but unfortunately the turnout location I need to operate isn't really conducive to a mechanical linkage from the nearest easily accessible position.
The turnout in question is on a raised section of track about 2'6" above ground level at the back of a 3ft deep shrub/flower border and partly behind a mature apple tree. The branch track that comes 'forward', crosses a removable girder bridge as soon as it is clear of the tree trunk. Currently I can hang by one hand from the lowest branch of the tree and just reach the mechanical point lever with the other hand...'nuff said??

[tom_tom_go]

If the track is raised then you can mount a device underneath?

If the point does not need to be switched then why not just place wire under tension below the point so it resets to the same position each time?

[Boustrophedon]

Using electric central locking motors is a tempting idea. The old ones were solenoids, nowadays they have little geared motors in them. They are tempting because they are powerful, have about the right throw and work off 12V. The inside of a car door is not a dry environment so although they are not waterproof, they are happy in a damp environment. The connectors are usually waterproof too. In addition many have microswitches built in to monitor the position of the output.

There are many far eastern suppliers of replacement locking motors for little money.

[Big Jim]

How about a completely off the wall Idea...

Problems - Point needs to operate remotely.
Point remote operation from fixed spot can be inconvenient.

Solution - Radio Control.

This could be something really clever and digital and expensive or a very cheap RC car could be acquired from ebay (other sources of mass produced tat are available) and butchered to provide Rx and solenoid along with a Tx unit. The gubbins could be encased in a small plastic box with a few silica gel bags to try and keep the moisture out.

Just a thought.

[philipy]

Boustrephedon, yes those were my thoughts exactly and why it seemed like a good idea, in principle at least.

Jim, good idea but we go full circle! If you look at my thread https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... sy#p118701 You'll see that I have used RC to control the turnouts at the other end of this deviation, based on one of Rik's ideas on Peckforton, and this is now the last part of that project. So I have the method of control worked out, its the actual mechanism I need to firm up on.
The Tortoises that I used before are OK-ish, but experience now shows that getting the spring tension correct is a bit of a 'mare and seems to vary with time and weather, so constant adjustment is required and that defeats the object of the exercise.

Tom, I do need to be able to throw it, it's not just a sprung trailing point.

Finally, for anyone interested, the turnout in question is behind the tree with two branches either side of the main trunk, in the centre of the second picture on the thread above, and the girder bridge is in the first picture.

[Big Jim]

Ahhhh

[tom_tom_go]

Why not just use a cheap hobby servo for the point?

[philipy]

Why not just use a cheap hobby servo for the point?

Tom,
Sorry, somehow I missed this post.
I have thought of using RC servos, in fact I bought a couple to experiment with some while ago. I successfully used servos for 4mm points many years ago, but in those days, on receipt of a signal they simply went to the end of travel in one direction or the other ad stopped. Thats what I want to do now but modern servos work on PWM and I have no idea if it is possible to modify them and if it is I don't know how to do it.

[tom_tom_go]

I would like to help as if you read my RWLR thread you will see I am able to use servos with RC for points, signals, etc.

But if you don't want to go down that route I did play around with a Fulgurex slow action point motor years ago and got it to operate a Peco SM32 point:

http://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-10028 ... oint-motor

http://vid42.photobucket.com/albums/e33 ... /point.mp4

The Fulgurex is durable and will survive outside in an enclosure mounted underneath your track (part of the packaging forms a box you can use).

[philipy]

I would like to help as if you read my RWLR thread you will see I am able to use servos with RC for points, signals, etc.

But if you don't want to go down that route I did play around with a Fulgurex slow action point motor years ago and got it to operate a Peco SM32 point:

http://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-10028 ... oint-motor

http://vid42.photobucket.com/albums/e33 ... /point.mp4

The Fulgurex is durable and will survive outside in an enclosure mounted underneath your track (part of the packaging forms a box you can use).

Tom,
Thanks for all this. I have been following your thread with interest and some admiration, anyway.
I wish I had the skill, knowledge and/or dedication to understand and use Arduino, but I did try once before when Rik was extollng its virtues for signal control, and got nowhere, unfortunately.

The Fulgurex is basically very similar to the Tortoise, but my initial satisfaction with the Tortoise has somewhat lessened with experience, as I said before, so I'm not over keen to repeat it. Plus the DCC Supplies page on your link says that they are unavailable - not sure if that is just a temporary out of stock.

I'm on holiday atm, so unable to play around for another couple of weeks, currently just trying to marshall ideas for when I get back.
I'll update as and when I've achieved anything practically. However I'm always willing to listen to ideas from anyone.

[GTB]

However I'm always willing to listen to ideas from anyone.

Have you considered pneumatic control? A lot more weatherproof than electrickery and no magic smoke to escape.......

https://www.sunsetvalleyrailroad.com/pneumatics.html

According to Sunset's website, Simon Whenmouth is the UK dealer, although I can't find it on his website.

I've played with the demo setup Argyle have on their stand at exhibitions and was impressed with how it works. Even more impressed that Michael was powering it with a garden pressure sprayer, instead of a compressor.

I gather Modratec have a version of their mechanical interlocking frames that works with this system.

Regards,
Graeme

[philipy]

Have you considered pneumatic control? A lot more weatherproof than electrickery and no magic smoke to escape......

Thanks for the suggestion, Graeme. No, it had never even crossed my mind. I've had a look at the links you gave and it certainly looks impressive and elegant, but it also looks expensive!
Based on the prices on the website it looks as though it would be a minimum of about 55$Aust ( approx £25) for one turnout, plus additional costs for manifolds etc as the system grows, plus compressor(or garden sprayer - I do like that idea!) plus the electric control system, plus shipping/UK importer costs. In addition it then appears to need a fairly hefty control box/panel to house it all.

By comparison, my current 2 remotely controlled turnouts cost about £16 each for the Tortoises ( Fulgurex approx £11each), plus about £6 for the 20-channel garage door opener ( enough spare channels for all future likely needs), a 12v motor cycle battery which also powers LED's, etc, and will supply future needs, and wire which I have lying around.

So thanks again for the thought and I'd love to see it in operation, but I don't think its for me.

[tom_tom_go]

I successfully used servos for 4mm points many years ago, but in those days, on receipt of a signal they simply went to the end of travel in one direction or the other ad stopped. Thats what I want to do now but modern servos work on PWM and I have no idea if it is possible to modify them and if it is I don't know how to do it.

You can achieve this by removing the servo controller inside the servo so that it turns endlessly when power is applied. Now all you need is a timer and switch to just send voltage to move the servo to one position and then switch back to the other position. Do you need to have this set up as R/C or push button though, I am not clear how you want to control it?

[philipy]

Thanks Tom.
As I thought, removing the circuit board will remove ALL control so it won't stop at a limit point? I guess I could add a couple of micro switches to act as travel limits, which I've done many times, but its getting messy.
For control I'm using an RC garage door opener with 20 channels. - Push a numbered button and it theoretically sends a +12v signal, but I know it works down to about 4v.
With the Tortoises I've wired in a relay to act as a changeover switch since they run stalled to keep positive drive pressure.

[tom_tom_go]

Ah ok well then surely a solenoid point motor is the answer?