boiler certificates!

[Boustrophedon]

OK I get it my engines work at 3 bar and need an up to date boiler cert.

But why don't I need one for my Kitchen aid espresso machine that has a boiler at 15 bar?

Just askin'.

[Gralyn]

Probably held by the manufacturer to cover all the items manufactured with the same specific boiler.

[TonyW]

OK I get it  my engines work at 3 bar and need an up to date boiler cert.

Can I ask, please, why?

[Boustrophedon]

OK I get it  my engines work at 3 bar and need an up to date boiler cert.

Can I ask, please, why?

If I want to use it in public...

[TonyW]

If I want to use it in public...

Ah yes ... if you are running at an exhibition then you need to check with the organiser what certification they require as they may or may not accept 16mm Association certificates.

If they require their own certification then they should be able to advise who to go to. If they accept Association certificates then a visit to your nearest Association boiler tester is required.

Incidentally, 3 bar is not the issue. It is 3 bar-litre that is the cut-off point, which is defined as the internal volume of the boiler (in litres) multiplied by the working pressure (in bar).

[artfull dodger]

I am really supprised that all live steam models do not require one in our "sue happy" society where common sense went out the window and over paid lawyers rule. Thankfully, this is not the case, atleast in the USA. Mike

[MDLR]

THere is a new code in preparation by the 16mm Association in conjunction with the (British) Southern Federation. Basically, this removes the need for boiler testing for mass produced boilers under 3 bar/litres (except for Regners and early Merlins with their brass boilers, which will requre periodic (not nessessarily annual) tests). Mamods are likely to be exempt, because they are considered to be low pressure - besides they don't have pressure gauges! Home built boilers will still require testing. It's also likely to be a requirement to carry out an Association boiler, pressure gauge and safety valve

See http://www.16mm.org.uk/resources/loco-maintenance/ for what to do, how to do it and how to record it.

[TonyW]

That's interesting. Some 1980s Roundhouse locos also have brass boilers, and I own one. My nearest Association boiler tester is 150 miles away...

Many people buy and operate model steam locos of "our" size on their own property who are not 16mm Association members and consequently they operate at their own risk and are not subject to the Associations' testing regime.

[MDLR]

In that case, Tony, your brass-boilered Roundhose would need regular testing. I'm no expert, but I understand that brass boilers can deteriorate as they get older, hence the need for inspection.
Many Association members do not bother to do an annual test, and even fewer record it...............

[GardenRail]

In that case, Tony, your brass-boilered Roundhose would need regular testing. I'm no expert, but I understand that brass boilers can deteriorate as they get older, hence the need for inspection.
Many Association members do not bother to do an annual test, and even fewer record it...............

The locomotive will only 'need' a hydraulic test if it is run at a show or other public venue. These things are not dangerous. Indeed I remember an early Merlin failing whilst running. It was a pinhole in the hottest part of the boiler i.e. inside the smokebox. All that happened was that the exhaust looked good and the gas needed turning up. Modern commercial boilers (and gas tanks) do not need hydraulic test unless seriously damaged. Certainly I would not put my own locos in the hands of an amateur for testing anyway. Watching a tester at a model engineering club solemnly testing a commercial 40psi 16mm boiler whilst ignoring the associated gas tank which can work under many times the boiler pressure (and all held in with a Ronson lighter valve) was hilarious. I would far rather put my trust in the SEP component of the EEC Pressure Vessel Regulations (designed with us in mind) than someone of whatever background who volunteers to test 'boilers' at his local club. It is all borrocks as they say in China....

[RadioActiveGnome]

200 psi lorry tyre explodes and that's considered normal wear and tear

14 psi mamod without a boiler cert and its considered a hand grenade!

[Wallace]

Having been involved in the running of Steam Toys in Action in Leicester for far too many years than I care to remember we have never had to ask for booker tests on commercially made boilers due to their size. The only boilers which needed a test were home made jobs and those on miniature traction engines (model engineered ones)
I can't see why an unmplested commercial boiler should cause any problems. The worst that happens is that solder joints melt/ give up the ghost and a relatively small amount of steam and water comes out. The engines are usually far enough away from the audience not to cause a problem. The biggest problem is from meths burners or rubber seals on gas burners perishing.
Safety is vital but it can be taken too far sometimes and this is not good fonpwople coming into the hobby.

[Enginehouse]

Tag is right on the button with his response to what is a well established and almost almost annual event among the steam hobby brigade of debating the truly ridiculous rules concerning small boiler testing.

Working for many years as a professional with " Real" boilers, many over 6 million BTU 100+PSI and also fast steam generators running at 200psi and well above, I find the whole thing laughable. Only ever saw one boiler split (an elderly three pass with single jet burner running at a SWP of 100psi to which a young engineer had fitted a Hamworthy rotary burner (against the advice of the manufacturer). Backplate impingement bowed and split it at just over test pressure, but other than a rumble and a fair bit of steam into the rear smoke box and up the stack, all was sweetlness and light. Rewelded, X Rays OK, correctly set up burner and back to work within a week or so.

Forgive me if I regard small toy boiler testing as an exercise in futility designed purely to give importance to mainly elderly members of the Ban It All Brigade. Recently, watching a fool remove the filler plug from a Roundhouse loco with 20psi still,on the boiler being a case in point. It hit the hall roof quite impressively. No,way to legislate for stupidity no matter how hard we all try.

[TonyW]

Interesting viewing from 53:50...
https://youtu.be/yzsh8PhCPRE?t=3231

[Chris Cairns]

Many Association members do not bother to do an annual test, and even fewer record it

There is currently no mandatory requirement to complete either to be covered by the Association's Insurance, and even less members (at least here in Scotland) paint a red line/mark on their pressure gauges either (again not mandatory).

Mike Riley's SMT article was very useful, but it refers to an out of date certificate. This caused a little confusion when the West of Scotland Group were getting prepared for attending Peterborough 2016 with 'Glendreich'. The advice I was given by Mark Rennie, Technical Director, was that the annual steam test must be witnessed by a competent person - in the certificate used in Mike's article the Witnessed by column there is the additional (For certificates only) wording, which is not present in the current 2013 certificate. As Mike's article is now listed on the website (Thank you for pointing that out Brian) I guess Mark's advice was wrong - I did raise the question with Mike but got no reply, and in the end the WoSG agreed that the annual steam tests for Peterborough had to be witnessed - however I got raspberried when I said I could only witness those models with a red line on their pressure gauge!

Interesting to hear they are going to single out brass boilers for recurrent testing, presumably due to the dezincification risk. However you say that Regner's will require this testing yet Mamod's are likely exempt because they are considered low pressure & have no pressure gauge. Clearly some sort of list of which models will require this testing needs producing.

The Regner Max (now discontinued) has a working pressure of 2 Bar, and a pressure gauge was an optional extra (like the Roundhouse Basic Series). The current Mamod products, Mark III, 2015 Saddle Tank, Thomas Telford & Brunel Mark III are all fitted with brass boilers and have a working pressure of 40 PSI (2.75 Bar) - the Brunel Mark III also comes with a pressure gauge. I believe it is also possible to fit a Dream Steam adjustable safety valve (threaded 1/4" x 26 BSF) to a Mamod or MSS which can then be adjusted up to 60 PSI (4.14 Bar)!

Chris Cairns

[steveh99]

still so sensible conclusion yet. Most documentation I have seen is all about new boilers and how to do a hydraulic test. Not much mention of older existing commercially made boilers. Examination & Testing miniature steam boilers 2012 effective 1st Jan 2013 (over 4 years ago now) says it is not retrospective. The suggested written steam test exam relies on using the fitted, uncalibrated and not very accurate pressure gauge fitted to an unidentified boiler. The gas tank on my locos is significantly stronger than the thin tin aerosol can I use to fill it from which is at a much higher pressure and volume than my loco tank. Its all stuff and nonsense