Garden Railway Forum

Perhaps it's only in N Ireland that I've detected this, but there does seem to be slight notion amongst other scales here that 16 mm modelling isn't 'proper railway modelling'. Perhaps it's because of the freelance nature of many lines, I don't know, but I certainly have detected it.

It doesn't worry me one iota though! I'm too happy making coaches out of cardboard and mine tubs out of margarine cartons to worry about it! What I have trouble with is them spending a 'Millie' price on a Blue Pullman.

Each to his own. What the smaller scales dont realise is we are running a REAL railway.

If your talking about the4 00 and N brigade I think they make us look almost sane. And yes I have been one of them but I escaped... But as you say they seem to spend a great deal more in their small models than some of us do on ours but it seems you have to too be taken seriously in their circles whereas in 16mm circles I think the less you spend the more you are admired (BIG Generalisation !).... But then most of them think that standard gauge is the only proper type of railway... Theres just no accounting for taste.

The bit that i've never understaood is they will pay extrordinary amounts of money for the most perfect scale models that run in scale surrounding lovingly sculptured out of allsorts of scale materials and then run them at a scale 700mph !... Its just plain weird !
Barry

This is something that put me off the smaller scales. I admire anyone who can build a 4 track mainline in P4, completely to scale and perfect in every detail, but it is not for me. I cannot be doing with the rivet counting/ anorak wearing/Better than the real thing brigade.
I went to a local exhibition last year and while I admired the quality of the work, there was nothing happening for most of the time on many layouts.
I like NG and particularly 16mm as no one really takes themselves to seriously.

On the station wall of the Rhyl Miniature Railway in North wales, is a quote from Wenman Joseph Basset Lowke that says:

Those who take miniature railways too seriously, run the risk of missing the point.

Albeit a different scale altogether but I think that fits in with the hobby on every scale and gauge, it's supposed to be fun and I suppose everyone's version of fun is unique to them, some enjoy taking it seriously and others not so, but I guess that is something so easily forgotten in some circles.

My 00 train set was just that, a train set, I had locos and rolling stock from every era and railway company and played with them for hours on end.
Even my 16mm stuff is like a trainset to me, bar the Leek and manifold set, most of it is freelance.

I think even Tag G wrote about how many in the finer scales looked down on 16mm modeling. But it is they who are missing the whole point. Most 16mm railways are railways in thier own right. Many modelers strive for a "family" appearance to the locomotives and the railway has a purpose to be, hauling slate, peat ect. While many get run in just a roundy round fashion most of the time, many can also do shunting and probably do when its not a open day with so many others around. I find trying to properly model in the finer scales frustrating and that doesn't help my anxiety. Something I struggle with enough being autistic. But watching a 16mm or any large scale train running thru the garden, maybe stopping to set out and pickup wagons at the brewery and picking up loads of peat to be quite relaxing. Mike

I actually think that most of the smaller scales despite some wonderful quality work actually lack any atmosphere. One 00 engine is much like another 00 engine. If you look at any small layout they are just lots of the same thing going round and round. If you then look at even a small layout such as built by John Rogers or Brian Dominic the trains actually disappear and go somewhere and the whole thing is full of atmosphere and everything on the layout has a reason and a purpose. They've captured the essence of a true narrow gauge railway so the whole thing becomes so much more realistic.

It was pics of Tag Gorton's Longlands and Western that got me into the whole 16mm world. And for my love of Merlin live steamers, despite thier short comings many times. Mike

sstjc:123378 wrote:... and then run them at a scale 700mph !... Its just plain weird !

There are many in 16mm who do the same thing.

TonyW wrote:There are many in 16mm who do the same thing.

As commented on by a fellow 16mm NGM member last week regarding some of running in the latest 16mm NGM DVD - I was very conscientiously running my Roundhouse Alco at a typical scale snail speed as he was videoing it close in.

Chris Cairns

I also model in 009, but I don't take it as seriously as say, 00 or p4 modellers do, in the latest 'railway modeller', for instance, there is reviewed a 00 a4 pacific for no less than £400!  :shock: I would never pay anything like that for my 009 locos
I think they get a bit too hung up on getting everything exactly to scale, rather than trying to capture an overall atmosphere
Furthermore, 16mm is a lot more social, after all we have re-gaugable locos specifically for running on other peoples lines, thus I don't see why they should look down on us

16mm scale is in a very unusual position in the modeling world as it covers a huge variety of skills and interests. Since starting this hobby I've learnt gardening, landscaping, carpentry and metalwork aside from the usual modeling practices. Its also one of the few scales where real materials can be used, wood for wood, metal for metal. The smaller scales however can go for full scale details as their environments are completely controlled, our locos and rolling stock often need to forgo true scale for sturdiness to compete with the real world and its giant frogs. Most of the garden rail scales are into the model engineering side. Certainly the locos themselves either steam or diesel, cannot always be kitbashed or scratch built on the dining room table and need machine tools in their creation. I think the concept of "freelance" doesn't really exist in smaller scales, most  locos are of standard designs following prototypes. I do wonder if by having freelance designs we are seen as "cheats" or we just playing trains as small children do, minus the apple based device of course.


Appologies if that makes little sense

I do both (4mm and garden) and have to say we have a fair share of nutters in both camps. I couldn't spend more than a £100 on a 4mm loco and can't afford new roundhouse prices.
You can get away with more in the garden, in my eyes. I've been building wagons that are probably crude but look ok from 6ft and I'm trying the same with the 4mm layout.
Model railways is such a broad church there is room for every driver in any scale they choose. To be honest mine is construction/building and less operating or prototypical adherence.  Each to their own and long may it be so, just enjoy it!

Back to the 4mm for me, til the clocks go forward...

My reasons for going large scale outdoors were that I have far more room in the yard for a layout, my eyesight no longer is sufficient for the smaller scales and a garden railway is closer to the real deal with the need to cope with Mother Nature.

Over on this side of the pond large scale modelers lean toward layouts that are simply larger versions of an indoor layout. They are still into the detail of the models and layout. The Alberta Spruce industry loves these modelers who pepper their layouts with these trees. I've visited a few of these layouts and they come across as plastic and artificial... just like the smaller indoor scales. Very unappealing to me personally.

Part of the allure to this forum was that many here simply run model trains in the garden without trying to replicate an actual prototype. Rik's Peckforton Light Railway is a good example of one for inspiration.

To each his own of course.

Dealing with the high cost for a live steamer was the major hurdle I had to get past when I shifted to 16mm vs track powered LGB style garden railroading. I still long for a brand new Lady Anne from Roundhouse, maybe some day! For now my venerable Merlin Major keeps trains moving. Now if sourcing 32mm Peco track wasn't so hard on my side of the pond. Still running over German girder rails for now. A new raised line is in the planning stages and the hope is for 32mm gauge at that time instead of 45mm. There are so many ways one can model 16mm in the garden, thats one of the major draws to me. Espiclly overgrown moss covered tracks! Mike

artfull dodger:123448 wrote:Dealing with the high cost for a live steamer was the major hurdle I had to get past when I shifted to 16mm vs track powered LGB style garden railroading.  I still long for a brand new Lady Anne from Roundhouse, maybe some day! For now my venerable Merlin Major keeps trains moving.  Now if sourcing 32mm Peco track wasn't so hard on my side of the pond.   Still running over German girder rails for now.  A new raised line is in the planning stages and the hope is for 32mm gauge at that time instead of 45mm.     There are so many ways one can model 16mm in the garden, thats one of the major draws to me.  Espiclly overgrown moss covered tracks!    Mike

Mike, why not hand lay your own track? It's not difficult.

Llagas Creek Railways offers six foot long lengths of Code 215 or 250 (I use Code 250) for $3.90/piece. If my math is correct, that's $1.30 per foot just for the rail (without included shipping charge). I rip my own ties from pressure treated 5/8"x 6" x 6ft fence pickets at Home Deport for $1.55 each which yields about 70-75 ties per picket, or 2¢ per tie.

I have thought about it, lack the means to rip my own ties and while my friend says he will make the ties(we were thinking about 7/8ths scale as well), I wont hold me breath. He would rather hold down his chair these days. Also, point work construction scares me, even with premade frogs and point rails. Let me see if I get past the raised roadbed construction first. There is a raised line I am watching over in the "railway" part of this forum. Mine will be higher off the ground, but the style he is using is exactly what I had in mind for the shelf/track support idea. Waiting on local dealer to see if he can get SM32 Peco track, it isnt listed in the normal USA catalog other than a referance picture among pictures of all thier track offered. Thier SM45 is in there though! Mike

I have a suggestion for homemade points, not the most prototypical but bear with me, turntables on a curved section of track so that by rotating 180 degrees one changes direction, I got the idea from the lartigue monorailway where actual pionts are impossible, an archaic idea, but it might just work

Don't be afraid to try it. I've build standard switches, curved and wyes. Nice thing about large scale rail is that you can build like the prototype does using nearly the same techniques. Frogs seem complicated but essentially it's a simple matter of cutting, bending and filing the rail then assembling like a puzzle.

Photo here of my most complicated switch build so far. A curved 12" radius switch up against a standard 12" radius switch with a curved/straight crossing added into the mix. Took me a few days to get this built.

Chris Cairns:123413 wrote:

TonyW wrote:There are many in 16mm who do the same thing.

As commented on by a fellow 16mm NGM member last week regarding some of running in the latest 16mm NGM DVD - I was very conscientiously running my Roundhouse Alco at a typical scale snail speed as he was videoing it close in.

Chris Cairns

I did try to select the best footage in that regards this year and I feel that we are slowly getting there!