Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

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dewintondave
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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by dewintondave » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:27 am

When you hear your loco's voice for the first time

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Dave

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by FWLR » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:51 am

Not a bad effort that Dave. :thumbright:
Rod

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by dewintondave » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:58 am

Getting back in to it now! I've been working on a gas burner to slot-in instead of the grate. Had some success in the end lighting it inside the firebox.



Burner without end caps
IMG_20190709_154024.jpg
When I made the steam powered diesel I made a nifty jig for drilling the 4 cross holes in the thin tube, I copied the jet holder too
IMG_20190710_161836.jpg
Last edited by dewintondave on Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by FWLR » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:02 am

Brilliant job there Dave. Well done... :thumbright: :thumbright:
Rod

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by Oily Rag » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:47 am

Dave, I don't know how much you are into gas burners but it may pay you to make a little slide collar to cover the cross holes in your tube. Just locked with a screw. Masking off some of the primary air at the jet and providing adequate secondary air at the burner site will give you much more control and adjustment fo the flame. Been there blown my eyebrows almost more than once. It depends a lot on jet size but size 3 became difficult to get for a long while and I bought in a small stock of size 5 which theoretically is approximately a 9thou hole (0.23MM) and can be a bit fierce for our size burners. Plus I use a dispersal tube inside the burner body itself so no gas/air mix impinges directly on the burner holes.

I have made a very finger sensitive drill chuck for very small drills to make my own jets to fit in the tailstock so I can go down further in hole sizes.
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Ian
Dirranbandi & Toowoomba Light Railway

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by dewintondave » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:49 am

Thank you lads. When I built the steam diesel I bought a wide selection of gas jets that are spare parts for camping stoves from our local big box store. They range from 0.11mm to 0.23mm, the steam diesel is using the 0.23mm jets
IMG_20150406_152221.jpg
Yesterday I was testing this new burner with a 0.17mm jet and it wouldn't light at all outside. I tried it in the firebox and got a great big backfire :bom: (Mrs B thought it was from out on the street) I swapped the jet for the 0.11mm and it lit easily as seen on the video.

Todays testing the burner with this same jet outside of the firebox showed some interesting results. It doesn't matter how far in the burner the tube is, the result is the same. But when I flipped the burner tube around to use the wrong end for the jet holder the flame was much better. For this burner having the entrainment holes further than usual from the jet helped.

Burner tests.JPG
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Dave

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by Oily Rag » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:43 am

Hi Dave,
Those are interesting pictures. They sort of go against the normal thinking. However it would suggest perhaps to me that you are entraining much less primary air at the jet with the holes further away from the jet orifice. Looking closely at your pictures it would seem that the jet itself is flat faced. Here the standard jets from CALOR have a coned face down to about half the full diameter at the orifice end (the threads are always 1BA by the way). Conventionally for initial set up the jet position is set by the maximum diameter of the cone being in line with the periphery of the primary air holes. I don't necessarily agree but thats by the by. This entrains the maximum amount of primary air to mix with the gas. Gives a great roaring flame and great for blowlamps but not really for our burners. There is a lot of tendency for the flame to draw back behind the burner holes, even behind ceramics and roar or even scream away. Hence my suggestion for the collar which you can adjust to optimise your setup for primary air by masking off a portion of the cross holes. One of the big differences I made to my set ups was to inroduce a dispersal tube inside the burner. Claim no originality but picked up what the model boat boys were doing as they were using two levels of stainless gauze at the burner and as the burner. This "dispersal" tube is basically just a piece of tube inside the burner below the multi hole plate or ceramic with some slots cut with a hacksaw about 1/3 to 1/2 way across the tube which has a blanked off end. These slots point downwards away from the burner flame plate and the gas from the jet is fed into it. You get much calmer easier to adjust burners along with the collar for primary air. Finally I am experimenting with two valves at the gas tank end of the supply chain. One essentially is a cut off pure and simple and then a further needle valve to fine tune the control.

I do note you are aiming for the blue flame cones. I try to start with a yellow flame over the whole burner with a new design then tune back slowly to get the optimum blue cone. The other thing I thought was important but have more work to do is to have a clear 15MM height above a flat burner when installed in a firebox but I am now unsure how important this is with all the tubular burners in internal flues these days. I know it seemed to be important when I was developing my own fixed cylinder De Winton with vertical boiler.

Cheddar Models when they were around used to install as standard a miniature gas regulator of the diaphragm type on all their locomotives. This ran the supply into a ceramic gas poker directly into a flue tube. The burner had a tendency to scream and howl and it was even then a fine line when I had a SAMSON of theirs. Great loco except for this point. Still running all these years later on a friend's railway.

Hope my comments provide food for thought if nothing else.
Regards
Ian
Dirranbandi & Toowoomba Light Railway

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by GTB » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:15 pm

I'm not a particular fan of ceramic burners. The only one I've built was no better at boiling water than a poker burner with the same size jet. I can see the point of using them in locos designed for dual coal and gas firing, but remain unconvinced otherwise.

I'n considering building a perforated plate type as an alternative to the ceramic burner, to see if it gives any improvement in output.

A few more points to think about, from the poker burner side of the fence.......

Butane has a narrow flammability range, 1.6-8.4%v/v in air is usually quoted. The range for Propane is similar.

Which means there's not much wiggle room to get it right, especially as we want to be close to the stochiometric ratio of butane to air which is 3.2% by volume. The heat output will start to drop as the air fuel ratio moves away from that point.

All my operational boilers have poker burners and are around 55% efficient at turning butane and water into steam at 40psi, but I've never seen numbers quoted for ceramic burners. Poker burners work over a gas pressure range of about two, ie. the max heat output with the gas wound right up is about twice the heat output with the gas turned down to the minimum stable flame. The max. heat output is set by the jet size.

With poker burners, I've found the Roundhouse arrangement with rows of holes the quietest type and easy enough to make. The ones with slots are noisier and while they can be quietened with stainless steel mesh inside the poker, it restricts air flow, reduces heat output and can make the burner harder to light. I also found that putting a few strands of teased out stainless steel wool inside the poker quietened things down, but that also restricted air flow and reduced heat output.

The most interesting poker burner I own came in an Aster Krauss kit. The poker is formed from perforated stainless steel sheet and suspended in the centre of the flue. It burns very quietly, as the gas velocity is low and the efficiency is as good as the Roundhouse design.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by Oily Rag » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:38 pm

Arrrgh! I have just lost a reply with pics. I think we both pushed the button at the same time Graeme. However I have attached some photos for clarification.
micro drill chuck.JPG
This is the sensitive micro drill assembly, homemade of course, to drill tiny holes like jets. The chuck on the nose is a cheapy commercial collet item which will go down to zero. The assembly is sprung loaded and has a 25MM stroke and is finger controlled by the knurled wheel. No.2 Morse taper for the tailstock. It works fine. The problems occur with the initial much needed centre drill. Sometimes if the centre mark is examined closely (with a glass) it will have generated a tiny pyramid in the centre causing the tiny drill to wander and snap like a carrot. I am going to try out a spotting drill as I am assured they will give a sharp depression.
gas jet std.JPG
Sorry for the rubbish picture taken in a hurry but these are standard gas jets here from the main supplier of gas CALOR. I think you can see what I mean now in my previous post. The basic body is easy enough to make.
burners 01.JPG
These are some of my development burners for vertical boilers. The two smaller ones with "wings" are smaller than the firebox and secondary air is free to move in from around the burner. They are suspended by the "wings" from the loco frames. You will see differing patterns of primary air holes. The larger burner is a close fit in the firebox with the secondary air piped up through the centre.
None would I classify as being totally successful.

The other couple of gizmos in the picture are variable orifice jets I made to experiment with. Much like a variable needle jet carburettor such as the SU. However it does get more complicated because although the pressure is dropping like mad at that point the needle still needs a gland to seal it. I thought I would get away with it but not so. The gas flow theoretically exits under pressure in a vortex which will entrain and mix more air more reliably than a straight jet. I can't prove the theory.

I also, having seen some of the model boat guys work, am looking away from ceramics now. Either drillings as you suggest Graeme or stainless steel mesh. I have seen their burner and recently it was all published in the mag. The mesh is two layers, one flat, one domed over a wooden former. Very simple. The burner glows like an incandescant heater with little flame only above the dome and is almost silent, and infinteley controllable it would seem.
Regards
Ian
Dirranbandi & Toowoomba Light Railway

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by dewintondave » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:09 am

Well, what an interesting subject this is.

I thought I'd have some fun with an overly long gas tube, first with 2 air holes then 3 then 4. With 2 air holes the gas tube made a great bunsen burner, but with all 4 only a small flame could be maintained before it got blown out. The long tube gave the best gas burner burn too.
2019-07-13.jpg
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Dave

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by FWLR » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:15 am

Bunsen Burners.....Those were the days..... :roll: :roll:
Rod

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by dewintondave » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:16 pm

FWLR wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:15 am
Bunsen Burners.....Those were the days..... :roll: :roll:
Happiest days of our lives eh Rod ;)

Here's one I prepared earlier, the rosebud grate and ash pan. I used the grate as a drilling jig for the gas burner. There was no way I was going to drill those holes the hard way again :D
IMG_20190713_112604.jpg
IMG_20190713_112634.jpg
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Dave

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by FWLR » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:48 am

Great idea for saving you some time and perhaps frustration Dave.... ;) ;)
Rod

Life is so easy when I run my trains. :thumbright:

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by Oily Rag » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:28 am

Hi Dave,
Can I ask if you have achieved a "blue cone" at every hole yet? The pictures seem to show only certain select holes having a correct flame. The blue cone attached to the burner is a pretty sure way of knowing you have the correct mix and ratios.
Regards
Ian
Dirranbandi & Toowoomba Light Railway

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Re: Wild Rose ~ Quarry Hunslet

Post by dewintondave » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:55 am

Oily Rag wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:28 am
Hi Dave,
Can I ask if you have achieved a "blue cone" at every hole yet? The pictures seem to show only certain select holes having a correct flame. The blue cone attached to the burner is a pretty sure way of knowing you have the correct mix and ratios.
No I haven't, infact with the standard length burner tube which I'm using, the front row aren't alight outside of the firebox.

With the gas turned right up with the burner in the firebox the flame had an orange tinge to it last night, which is good as the loco will have draught at all times in use.
Best wishes,
Dave

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