The Manx Cleminsons survive in reasonably good numbers, but none are operational, or, indeed railway owned.
N40 - all-first - is somewhere in the UK and owned by the Rampton Trust;
N42 - first-third composite - is owned by the IOM Railways and Tramways Society and is being moved to the mainland;
N45 - third-guard - is privately preserved on the Isle and there is supposed to be one other, an all-third, surviving on the mainland- probably in the Rampton Collection.
The body of N41 is still owned by the railway company, and was the Bothy in front of the workshops since the 1960s replacing another Cleminson grounded in front of the workshops before the Great War. It got the chop during a crack down by the safety elves in the early 2000s and was replaced with a Portacabin. Either that or the then management was having an ornery turn! It was not destroyed, but is cluttering up a flat wagon around the back of the carriage shed! If it is moved back to its old site it will be used as an oil store - which make sense given that it always stood right by the engine shed doors at Douglas.
Technically speaking I think the major challenge is going to be the getting the right degree of compensation and flexibility so that it does not steer itself off the track. I am bracing myself for a thoroughly frustrating time with it, but then I might, just might, get it right first time. Things tend to be either right first time or a long term fettling project on the Skebawn and Castleknox!
Peter in AZ
P.S. The Kiwi Cleminson is giving me an idea for the Swebawn and Castleknox. I think a 3' gauge version would work rather nice as an eccentricity on the S&CLR&T. It is effectively2 fourwheeler bodies on a six wheel underframe which would compute to a big coach without things getting out of control. Nice going, Annie!
Cleminson Patent Underframes
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IrishPeter
On Tuesday I got to the 'Hobby Lobby' and picked up some strip wood and plywood. Herself needed various odds and ends from her side of the store, whilst I ended up in the doll's house section which provided some interesting paint called 'black plum' which I think will approximate to the late GS&WR and GSR version of coach plum under a couple of coats of varnish. Ironically, although the paint is called 'Americana' it is made in the Cheshire!
Anyhow, when I got home I got to work on Cleminson No.1 - a composite. I drew out the coach sides with two 5' third-class compartments, and three 6'8" first class compartments making 30' overall. The styling is Swansea Carrage and Wagon/MNR as one would expect of an Isle of Man nut like me!
The floor for the coach was cut at 445mm which allows about 2.5mm for either end bulkhead. I then marked the centre lines both across and along the length of the carriage, and the pivots for the outer wheels at 180mm from the centre point. The MNR Cleminsons had a 24' wheelbase which translates to 360mm in 15mm, which means that this vehicle will actually have a longer w/b than three of mybogie carriages! The centre lines give the basic layout of the Cleminson chassis.
After that it was time to build the centre truck...
Peter in AZ
Anyhow, when I got home I got to work on Cleminson No.1 - a composite. I drew out the coach sides with two 5' third-class compartments, and three 6'8" first class compartments making 30' overall. The styling is Swansea Carrage and Wagon/MNR as one would expect of an Isle of Man nut like me!
The floor for the coach was cut at 445mm which allows about 2.5mm for either end bulkhead. I then marked the centre lines both across and along the length of the carriage, and the pivots for the outer wheels at 180mm from the centre point. The MNR Cleminsons had a 24' wheelbase which translates to 360mm in 15mm, which means that this vehicle will actually have a longer w/b than three of mybogie carriages! The centre lines give the basic layout of the Cleminson chassis.
After that it was time to build the centre truck...
Peter in AZ
Last edited by IrishPeter on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IrishPeter
For the centre truck I made a shallow tray out of 3/8thsquare section basswood with a plywood top. This was 80mm square with the slot cut across with width in the centre. I then cut four short pieces of 5/8 x 3/8 to act as guides on either side of the centre truck so it can free move across the width of the vehicle, but cannot move fore and aft.
I then cut a notch in the front and rear truck members for the beam that forms the Cleminson mechanism. These will be useful latter when the centre beam is attached.
Next I cut a 210mm long piece of 5/8ths by 3/8ths basswood, and radiussed one side for the last 15mm at both ends. The length of this beam was determined by the fact the MNR Cleminson's were 30' long and ran on a 12' + 12' wheelbase. At the centre point I cut a notch to clear the screw fixing the truck to the underside of the carriage body, then cut the notches to form the rest of the joint with the tray. The tray was then loosely bolted to the underside of the carriage in the centre, and the centre beam glued onto the truck with its right hand side on the longitudinal centre line of the truck.
The end trucks were made the same way, but the beams were 100mm long so the would attach just inside the bolts in the centre of each truck. The ends were again radiussed on one side and arranged and glued into position on the left hand side of the trucks, the screwed into position so that the start of the radiussed sections on the centre beams meet. At this point it was time to use some small rubber bands to tie the vearious beams together.
It was then time to check that things wiggle properly with the centre truck steering the outer ones. The bolts holding all three trucks should be loose enough to allow the trucks to move vertically to deal with small variations in the track. I then superglued the W iron castings into position making sure the wheel set was in position before gluing the second one in each pair down
When everything was properly set it was time to turn it right side up and take it outside and see what happened. Well, it ran OK on the track I had recently levelled and fettled - my line is ground level and floats in ballast - but derailed on the tough bits. I loosed the nuts a bit more, and gave it another shove test, and it managed quite well. The only derailment was when a small twig got under the middle set of wheels and bounced them off the track.
So far so good.
Peter in AZ
I then cut a notch in the front and rear truck members for the beam that forms the Cleminson mechanism. These will be useful latter when the centre beam is attached.
Next I cut a 210mm long piece of 5/8ths by 3/8ths basswood, and radiussed one side for the last 15mm at both ends. The length of this beam was determined by the fact the MNR Cleminson's were 30' long and ran on a 12' + 12' wheelbase. At the centre point I cut a notch to clear the screw fixing the truck to the underside of the carriage body, then cut the notches to form the rest of the joint with the tray. The tray was then loosely bolted to the underside of the carriage in the centre, and the centre beam glued onto the truck with its right hand side on the longitudinal centre line of the truck.
The end trucks were made the same way, but the beams were 100mm long so the would attach just inside the bolts in the centre of each truck. The ends were again radiussed on one side and arranged and glued into position on the left hand side of the trucks, the screwed into position so that the start of the radiussed sections on the centre beams meet. At this point it was time to use some small rubber bands to tie the vearious beams together.
It was then time to check that things wiggle properly with the centre truck steering the outer ones. The bolts holding all three trucks should be loose enough to allow the trucks to move vertically to deal with small variations in the track. I then superglued the W iron castings into position making sure the wheel set was in position before gluing the second one in each pair down
When everything was properly set it was time to turn it right side up and take it outside and see what happened. Well, it ran OK on the track I had recently levelled and fettled - my line is ground level and floats in ballast - but derailed on the tough bits. I loosed the nuts a bit more, and gave it another shove test, and it managed quite well. The only derailment was when a small twig got under the middle set of wheels and bounced them off the track.
So far so good.
Peter in AZ
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IrishPeter
I actually did better than the above might suggest as I have the coach sides and ends partly made. My method is to cut the outer skin from plywood, then cut the drop light layer from card. At that point I add the beading - a job I hate - so I can then paint the outside before assembly. At least the Cleminsons are supposed to be Swansea products, so they have shallow wide square beading easily faked with card strips.
My painting sequence for passenger stock is a bit OTT:
1. two coats grey undercoat lightly sanded.
2. top coat
3. rub down
4. top coat
5. rub down, and occasionally
6. topcoat
7. rub down, and if it really desparate
8. top coat
9. rub down!
By this point I will usually have the underframe built - I tend to swap between underframe and body as I construct a carriage to stop the boredom setting in. The partitions between the compartments will also be in place by this point, and I will usually have applied the first coat of stain on the floors and partitions. The ends go on, and then sides.
The letter gets applied at this stage then the whole thing gets three thin coats of satin varnish. After that I put in the glazing, make the removeable roof, and then gradually add the rest of the interior.
By contrast to goods stock, which is usually a two or three evening thing being either a box with wheels or a tray with wheels, a passenger carriage take lots of time even though I take some short cuts.
Peter in AZ
My painting sequence for passenger stock is a bit OTT:
1. two coats grey undercoat lightly sanded.
2. top coat
3. rub down
4. top coat
5. rub down, and occasionally
6. topcoat
7. rub down, and if it really desparate
8. top coat
9. rub down!
By this point I will usually have the underframe built - I tend to swap between underframe and body as I construct a carriage to stop the boredom setting in. The partitions between the compartments will also be in place by this point, and I will usually have applied the first coat of stain on the floors and partitions. The ends go on, and then sides.
The letter gets applied at this stage then the whole thing gets three thin coats of satin varnish. After that I put in the glazing, make the removeable roof, and then gradually add the rest of the interior.
By contrast to goods stock, which is usually a two or three evening thing being either a box with wheels or a tray with wheels, a passenger carriage take lots of time even though I take some short cuts.
Peter in AZ
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IrishPeter
I have had the Cleminson out for a couple of test runs and there seem to be only two problems.
Firstly, it is, as predicted, a bit track sensative so I have been checking cross levels, which has improved things considerably. Like all my vehicles that run on scale wheels, rather than pizza cutters, I have to watch for low spots in the outer rail, so Finbar O'Toole and the boys have had their drinking time seriously reduced to assist with the reballasting operation.
Secondly, the Cleminson underframe has an interesting tick in that it is wise not to have a right hand turnout immediately after a right hand curve as the centre truck will still be steering the vehicle around the bend, thus it has a natural inclination to climb the inner rail (as it still thinks it is cornering) and split the points. I suspect that the cure will be to move the point about a foot further north so the whole of the Cleminson chassis is on the straight before the points.
Other than that, the beast has been successful enough that I think it may gain a couple of all-third sisters.
Peter in AZ
Firstly, it is, as predicted, a bit track sensative so I have been checking cross levels, which has improved things considerably. Like all my vehicles that run on scale wheels, rather than pizza cutters, I have to watch for low spots in the outer rail, so Finbar O'Toole and the boys have had their drinking time seriously reduced to assist with the reballasting operation.
Secondly, the Cleminson underframe has an interesting tick in that it is wise not to have a right hand turnout immediately after a right hand curve as the centre truck will still be steering the vehicle around the bend, thus it has a natural inclination to climb the inner rail (as it still thinks it is cornering) and split the points. I suspect that the cure will be to move the point about a foot further north so the whole of the Cleminson chassis is on the straight before the points.
Other than that, the beast has been successful enough that I think it may gain a couple of all-third sisters.
Peter in AZ
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Annie
Sounds as if you've almost got the Cleminson beast tamed Peter. Of course you know what I'm going to ask for now......... PICTURES!
I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest as I'll most probably have a go at a Cleminson myself even if I just build one to run on my L gauge (Lego) railway as a proof of concept.
I had to smile at your comment about pizza cutter wheel flanges btw
I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest as I'll most probably have a go at a Cleminson myself even if I just build one to run on my L gauge (Lego) railway as a proof of concept.
I had to smile at your comment about pizza cutter wheel flanges btw
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IrishPeter
I think I finally have the compensation figured out. I usually use a wide transverse pad on one end and a washer at the other with bogie carriage, whilst leaving a certain amount of slop in the screws or bolts. This allows one bogie to rock back and forth, and the other to rock back and forth and side to side. This creates a form of three-point suspension, so that it has to work quite hard or hit something to leave the track.
After several experiments and a lot of derailments, it seems that, apart from the motion due to the Cleminson radial links, the Cleminson needs the centre truck to move only in the vertical plane, whilst the outer trucks have a single long narrow pad along the centre line of the truck allowing them to wobble from side to side to accomodate minor irregularities in the track.
Pix will be forthcoming later. I'll snag the camera and take some photos when it warms up again. When I will get them posted is another matter, but hopefully it will be very soon.
Finbar O'Toole and the lads are seriously pi$$ed off (as opposed to their usual pi$$ed up!) for the next few weekends as the area management has decreed that part of the Skebawn and Castleknox is going to be relaid this winter. I took a shine to some SVRR Code 250 track and decided to use it through the rockery where there is little human foot traffic. The Code 332 track that is there now will be used to complete the mainline.
Peter in AZ
After several experiments and a lot of derailments, it seems that, apart from the motion due to the Cleminson radial links, the Cleminson needs the centre truck to move only in the vertical plane, whilst the outer trucks have a single long narrow pad along the centre line of the truck allowing them to wobble from side to side to accomodate minor irregularities in the track.
Pix will be forthcoming later. I'll snag the camera and take some photos when it warms up again. When I will get them posted is another matter, but hopefully it will be very soon.
Finbar O'Toole and the lads are seriously pi$$ed off (as opposed to their usual pi$$ed up!) for the next few weekends as the area management has decreed that part of the Skebawn and Castleknox is going to be relaid this winter. I took a shine to some SVRR Code 250 track and decided to use it through the rockery where there is little human foot traffic. The Code 332 track that is there now will be used to complete the mainline.
Peter in AZ
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IrishPeter
OK, now I have a mystery. Yesterday I ran the Cleminson between the two "28ft" bogie coaches and it behaved. Today I put it with the "30 foot bogie" and it spent most of its time in the ballast. The 30 footer is referred to as 'No.13' as it seems to be one of those vehicles which is a law unto itself derailing for no apparent reason, etc.. This has me wondering whether there is some bad mo-jo going on between the two of them. Guess I shall have to experiment a little tomorrow.
One complicating factor may be the I use centre chopper couplers rather than 'buffer and bog chain' variety. This gives a somewhat rigid coupling which may be dragging the Cleminson off the track.
Peter in AZ
One complicating factor may be the I use centre chopper couplers rather than 'buffer and bog chain' variety. This gives a somewhat rigid coupling which may be dragging the Cleminson off the track.
Peter in AZ
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IrishPeter
I had another run at the compensation and altered it to haveing the north end bogie fixed in the horizontal plane, and the other two able to jiggle from side to side. The only place she now derails on the mainline is on a worn set of points, so I am going to switch them out (no pun intended) for a newer set that is currently in the yard.
Took some pictures last evening, so I should get them up today or tomorrow. Then after dinner I laminated the roof and left it to dry overnight. I took a loo at it this morning and decided that discretion is the better part of valour so it can sit there until lunchtime. Then it will be time for a couple more pictures.
After that next two jobs are windows and the start of an interior.
Peter in AZ
Took some pictures last evening, so I should get them up today or tomorrow. Then after dinner I laminated the roof and left it to dry overnight. I took a loo at it this morning and decided that discretion is the better part of valour so it can sit there until lunchtime. Then it will be time for a couple more pictures.
After that next two jobs are windows and the start of an interior.
Peter in AZ
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IrishPeter
Crude it may be, but here are some pics of the Cleminson...
http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/ttac/SCLRTphotos8.html
Peter in AZ
http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/ttac/SCLRTphotos8.html
Peter in AZ
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Keith S
- Driver
- Posts: 1668
- Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:44 pm
- Location: Canada
Those sure look like they take a lot of fiddling to get them to work. I wonder why this was thought to be a good idea compared to just having a pair of bogeys.
It must have taken quite a bit of trial and error for you to come up with a system that works. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished coach.
It must have taken quite a bit of trial and error for you to come up with a system that works. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished coach.
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IrishPeter
I think the answer as to why the Cleminson was popular lies in two things:
1) Tare weight. The IMR bogie carriages were 10 tons light; whereas the MNR Cleminson were abot 8.5. This meant that they could have an extra vehicle with an additional 48 or 60 seats on each train.
2) Cost, they were about 15% cheaper than a compariable bogie vehicle due to the lighter underframes required.
3) Early bogies did not ride that well. A friend of mine who rode in both the IMR bogies of 1876-1881 and the MNR Cleminsons of 1879 remarked that the latter were a lot steadier.
On the other hand, they did have two drawbacks. Interesting things begin to happen if the swing links become too worn, so regular lubrication was essential, Also, Maunsell wheels (the ones with the wooden centres) on the middle axle was not adviseable. As the MNR/IMR discovered, when the centres of the Maunsell wheel began to age they could collapse on a sharp curve. This happened twice on a sharpish curve west of Union Mills on the Douglas - Peel line leading to the IMR developing a healthy distrust of the Cleminsons. That said, they were used on busy days right up to just after WW2, and their underframes were still pretty good in 1975/6. Unfortunately, seven of them were scorched in the St John's carriage shed fire, and were scrapped, but N40, 42, 45, and 51 survive intact.
My body design is freelance being a cross of MNR with the West Clare. The details are MNR/Swansea Wagon, but the 3/1/1/1/3 layout is West Clare. The fiddling about was not too bad. The main trick is to remember were the centre line of the carriage, the centre line of each axle, and the centre point between the trucks lie. It really is down to the geometry of the beast. For some reason they do not like to take the 'straight on route' at a set of same handed points after a left or right handed curve, unless the underframe is absolutely square. I got the prolem more or less cured, but that was not quite good enough for me, so I have found it adviseable to change out the points at the entry of Skebawn station replacing a R/H point after a right hand bend, with a left hander. That way the Cleminson has no temptation to keep steering right.
Cheers,
Peter in AZ
1) Tare weight. The IMR bogie carriages were 10 tons light; whereas the MNR Cleminson were abot 8.5. This meant that they could have an extra vehicle with an additional 48 or 60 seats on each train.
2) Cost, they were about 15% cheaper than a compariable bogie vehicle due to the lighter underframes required.
3) Early bogies did not ride that well. A friend of mine who rode in both the IMR bogies of 1876-1881 and the MNR Cleminsons of 1879 remarked that the latter were a lot steadier.
On the other hand, they did have two drawbacks. Interesting things begin to happen if the swing links become too worn, so regular lubrication was essential, Also, Maunsell wheels (the ones with the wooden centres) on the middle axle was not adviseable. As the MNR/IMR discovered, when the centres of the Maunsell wheel began to age they could collapse on a sharp curve. This happened twice on a sharpish curve west of Union Mills on the Douglas - Peel line leading to the IMR developing a healthy distrust of the Cleminsons. That said, they were used on busy days right up to just after WW2, and their underframes were still pretty good in 1975/6. Unfortunately, seven of them were scorched in the St John's carriage shed fire, and were scrapped, but N40, 42, 45, and 51 survive intact.
My body design is freelance being a cross of MNR with the West Clare. The details are MNR/Swansea Wagon, but the 3/1/1/1/3 layout is West Clare. The fiddling about was not too bad. The main trick is to remember were the centre line of the carriage, the centre line of each axle, and the centre point between the trucks lie. It really is down to the geometry of the beast. For some reason they do not like to take the 'straight on route' at a set of same handed points after a left or right handed curve, unless the underframe is absolutely square. I got the prolem more or less cured, but that was not quite good enough for me, so I have found it adviseable to change out the points at the entry of Skebawn station replacing a R/H point after a right hand bend, with a left hander. That way the Cleminson has no temptation to keep steering right.
Cheers,
Peter in AZ
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11thHour
- Trainee Fireman
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:00 am
- Location: Wodonga, Vic. Land of Oz
Nice to see people experimenting with Cleminsons.
Heres a commercial attempt.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0Qeil- ... edit?pli=1
Tim
Heres a commercial attempt.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0Qeil- ... edit?pli=1
Tim
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IrishPeter
I retrieved the Cleminson out of the roundtuit box this evening and repaired the damage caused by a rather nasty derailment so I can give it a try tomorrow on the revamped Skebawn and Castleknox. If that proves to be successfu I will build an all-third to match.
It also crossed my mind that mounting the couplings on the front and rear trucks might impart a little bit of steer to curb the tendancy to derail when trying to take the straight on route over a LH turnout after a RH bend. It is funny how little problems will bury themselves at the back of the brain somewhere and the possible solution will present itself the next time you are looking at the problem object.
Peter in AZ
It also crossed my mind that mounting the couplings on the front and rear trucks might impart a little bit of steer to curb the tendancy to derail when trying to take the straight on route over a LH turnout after a RH bend. It is funny how little problems will bury themselves at the back of the brain somewhere and the possible solution will present itself the next time you are looking at the problem object.
Peter in AZ
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