Which one's to scale?

[Keith S]

I couldn't agree more. I don't wish to criticize those who do try to be as accurate to a prototype as possible, but I am not one of those people. My tastes range more towards the generic engines and rolling stock, for one because fretting over scale accuracy makes me feel bored, and also because I find a perfectly rendered miniature looks funny surrounded by full-sized leaves, blades of grass and so on. But to each his own. I actually consider things like the "Billy" or "Lady Anne" or "Edgrig" to be highly realistic because they are real steam engines, and the overall external level of detail matches the mechanical level of detail. And if you're comfortable with this level of detail I don't see that it's wrong to want some of these engines to have a similar recognizable silhouette to a Tom Rolt, or a Leek&Manifold engine, for that matter.

Again I am not denigrating scale modelers, but there have been some opinions expressed on this forum,  that unless a product is made to exact 1:19 scale, it's rubbish. I'm more of the opinion that if you like how it looks, great, and if you don't, then don't buy it. It's not the "16mm scale forum", it's the "Garden Rail" forum.

On a different note, why do you only put working draincocks on the piston valve locomotives, and where can you get these drain cocks? Will they not work on a slide-valve loco?

[GardenRail]

On a different note, why do you only put working draincocks on the piston valve locomotives, and where can you get these drain cocks? Will they not work on a slide-valve loco?

The cocks are available from DJB Engineering at £25 for a set of four. One can most certainly fit them to a slide valve locomotive (as long as the cylinders are level rather than at angle to the track) but there is no particular reason to fit them. A 'slide' or 'D' valve loco can get rid of water just by lifting the valves, but a piston valve loco (machined to a high tolerance) has difficulty doing so and there have been several instances of people complaining that their new Accucraft is 'locked up.' Well they would not lock up if the instructions regarding the boiler level cock are followed (ie – leave this cock open until it stops issuing water and starts issuing steam). This way the cylinders are unlikely to hydraulic (or in other words fill with water from the boiler). Auto draincocks, on the other hand will blow all the time there is actually water in the cylinders, the ball in the draincock won't seat and the cocks will blow until the cylinder is heated up and there is just steam in the cylinder – at which point they 'snap' shut.

One needs to have the level of skill to remove and strip down the cylinders to just the cylinder carcass, then drill and tap into the cylinder before fitting the cock. They work absolutely fine. Don't however, expect huge displays of steam as can be seen on locos with 'dummy' draincocks. Our cylinders are quite small and so will heat up very quickly once the excess water has been given a way to escape.

I do like these things because I like my locomotives to work in the same way as the full size. This is the reason I fit resonator whistles so that a near scale whistle can work actually on the spectacle plate. I would like to fit draincocks to my Shawe coal-fired Fowler but the number of hours work involved for such a minimal gain has so far put me off... they are not needed in the same way as the piston valve Accucraft generics so I might cheat and fitting dummy drains operated from the cab...

[James-Buzz]

I think its a shame that IP removed items from the range because people were moaning about a few mm here and a few mm there not being to precise 16mm scale. Standard gauge trains differ too you know, stick a chiltern clubman 168 on the west coast mainline and see how far you get, not far, made for a broader loading gauge they would foul every platform edge! When your stood some several feet away from your train outdoors can you really tell its figure perfect? Long live the lady Anne and ragleth.

[laalratty]

I think the main problem with the IP Ffestiniog range is that it was oversized compared to the locos it was designed to match. I have one of the bogie "bowsiders" number 17/18 and it is far too tall stood over the Roundhouse Taliesin, to the extent it is nearly bigger then it when in fact it should be smaller (height wise anyhow)

[Mrs F Controller]

I couldn't agree more. I don't wish to criticize those who do try to be as accurate to a prototype as possible, but I am not one of those people. My tastes range more towards the generic engines and rolling stock, for one because fretting over scale accuracy makes me feel bored, and also because I find a perfectly rendered miniature looks funny surrounded by full-sized leaves, blades of grass and so on. But to each his own........"

Again I am not denigrating scale modelers, but there have been some opinions expressed on this forum,  that unless a product is made to exact 1:19 scale, it's rubbish. I'm more of the opinion that if you like how it looks, great, and if you don't, then don't buy it. It's not the "16mm scale forum", it's the "Garden Rail" forum.

.....

I quite agree with you Keith. I think we must have quite a mix of scales on ours but we tend to buy/make what we think looks right and if it doesn't we don't. I don't think it matters and by the way, when this thread started I happened to be reading an article in 'Practical Boat Owner' about scaling down from a 55ft schooner to 30ft by a boatbuilder. He was trying to explain the difference between scaling linear measurements and volume measurements (ie in this case sails) and they can't be just scaled down by the same amount otherwise it just doesn't look right or even work! When you're talking about such a small scale as 16mm then you've also got to take in the capabilities and practicalities of the engineering that goes into a loco to make it work in the first place. So what I'm trying to say is that you are never going to get it looking exactly like its grown up prototype without something having to give. I think all the companies do very well and all you've got to decide is does it work for your railway?

That's my opinion anyway!

[Pendo Pilot]

Scale? Ahh yeah I've heard of that...Don't see it about here though..

[pauly]

ahh rivet counters and scale obsessives.

They are quite possibly the most miserable faction of model railways, when somethig is built to scale their indifferent and when its not they go apes**t!

I mean really, going going onto online chat boards, writing to magazines and such to complain that the latest protypical coaching stock that Ip have released is 1 MM to short whereass the Brandbright coach is near perfect.
Isnt there a much better thing you could be using your time for or are being a miserable fanboy and rivet counter the only things that brings emotion (albeit negative) to your miserable life?

Yeah I dont care for them pretty much sums it up  :D

strangley they dont seem to last to long on this forum, oh I wonder why

[GardenRail]

I think the main problem with the IP Ffestiniog range is that it was oversized compared to the locos it was designed to match. I have one of the bogie "bowsiders" number 17/18 and it is far too tall stood over the Roundhouse Taliesin, to the extent it is nearly bigger then it when in fact it should be smaller (height wise anyhow)

yes it was an impossible task. The Taliesin was designed too wide so that it could be sold to people who wanted to run it on 45mm tracks, but to just widen the coach made it look very odd. IP have learned their lesson over this one and they tell me that they will not be producing stock for the L&M.

[Sir haydn]

Hang on a minute here, This is what really hacks me off about this forum a little comment like the one I made is completely blown out of the water!
I didnt say ' I HATE FREELANCE OVERSCALE MODELS' Did I? After all didnt I model and overscale corris No4 using a Leader?

I was refering to the FR range (It now comes to light we were looking at the penrhyn model) and the question in the first place, 'Which is scale'???

[TheChestnutLine]

Hang on a minute here, This is what really hacks me off about this forum a little comment like the one I made is completely blown out of the water!
I didnt say ' I HATE FREELANCE OVERSCALE MODELS' Did I? After all didnt I model and overscale corris No4 using a Leader?

I was refering to the FR range (It now comes to light we were looking at the penrhyn model) and the question in the first place, 'Which is scale'???

I do think it went a bit far out of proportion to what I originally asked. I was just curious as to why they were different even though they are the same prototype (and now are not as was cleared up). My line isn't 'to scale' as I have a roundhouse loco. I also have a guards van which is dead small ( the top of the door comes up to a busy bodies figures chest, and I have a freelance diesel. I think in this hobby it's just what looks right to you.

Rant over.

[Narrow Minded]

Hang on a minute here, This is what really hacks me off about this forum a little comment like the one I made is completely blown out of the water!
I didnt say ' I HATE FREELANCE OVERSCALE MODELS' Did I? After all didnt I model and overscale corris No4 using a Leader?

I was refering to the FR range (It now comes to light we were looking at the penrhyn model) and the question in the first place, 'Which is scale'???

I do think it went a bit far out of proportion to what I originally asked. I was just curious as to why they were different even though they are the same prototype (and now are not as was cleared up). My line isn't 'to scale' as I have a roundhouse loco. I also have a guards van which is dead small ( the top of the door comes up to a busy bodies figures chest, and I have a freelance diesel. I think in this hobby it's just what looks right to you.

Rant over.

I reckon it was an innocent enough question that certainly got blown out of proprtion with the responses

It did make me think though - maybe the "Rivet Counters" get upset because the rest of us are more than happy with our representative models, so upset that they then have to stay rooted to their soapboxes to try and justify the extra hours (or money) spent on their shelf queens
As for the gauge-ists, do they defend their personal choice of gauge because having peered over the fence, they fear they might have made a mistake?

[Pendo Pilot]

As for the gauge-ists, do they defend their personal choice of gauge because having peered over the fence, they fear they might have made a mistake?

You are examining your inner feelings there mate I'm no gauge-ist anyway, just a pi$$taker...

[GardenRail]

Hang on a minute here, This is what really hacks me off about this forum a little comment like the one I made is completely blown out of the water!
I didnt say ' I HATE FREELANCE OVERSCALE MODELS' Did I? After all didnt I model and overscale corris No4 using a Leader?

I was refering to the FR range (It now comes to light we were looking at the penrhyn model) and the question in the first place, 'Which is scale'???

Well no you didn't – but you did say that IP have always made stock overscale. This comment was incorrect of course – it was just the Ffesty stock. I am always sensitive to the odd or throwaway remark that can affect a small business adversely – as I would be with yours of course.

As to the rest – well this was a bit of topic creep ';)'

[Narrow Minded]

You are examining your inner feelings there mate

Nah, to make a mistake you have to make a decision first, mine was made for me

[LMS-Jools]

I model 1/12th scale. (well roughly anyways.) lol

[Sir haydn]

Hang on a minute here, This is what really hacks me off about this forum a little comment like the one I made is completely blown out of the water!
I didnt say ' I HATE FREELANCE OVERSCALE MODELS' Did I? After all didnt I model and overscale corris No4 using a Leader?

I was refering to the FR range (It now comes to light we were looking at the penrhyn model) and the question in the first place, 'Which is scale'???

Well no you didn't – but you did say that IP have always made stock overscale. This comment was incorrect of course – it was just the Ffesty stock. I am always sensitive to the odd or throwaway remark that can affect a small business adversely – as I would be with yours of course.

As to the rest – well this was a bit of topic creep ';)'

I was refering to the festy range though, In which case they have always made their stock over scale. I think this is all abit of a miss understanding.
I do detest the throw away remarks on here about scale modellers though. Very small minded, I have yet to meet a scale modeller who dosnt see the joys in freelancing.

[GardenRail]

[quote="
Well no you didn't – but you did say that IP have always made stock overscale. This comment was incorrect of course – it was just the Ffesty stock. I am always sensitive to the odd or throwaway remark that can affect a small business adversely – as I would be with yours of course.

As to the rest – well this was a bit of topic creep ';)'

I was refering to the festy range though, In which case they have always made their stock over scale. I think this is all abit of a miss understanding.
[/quote]

Of course. Your comment however,was not qualified by reference to the Ffesty stock and so referred to the range as a whole. This was why I picked up on it.

[Sir haydn]

Ever feel like you wish you had never helped in the first place

[LMS-Jools]

I model 1/12th scale. (well roughly anyways.) lol

[90733]

I model 1/12th scale.  (well roughly anyways.) lol

Sorry, found that comment entertaining for some reason
Think we might have gone off topic, all of us
But Ithink chesnutsline answer is basically there both scale except model different types?