A bit of time in the shed

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:36 pm

GTB wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:07 pm
-steves- wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:20 am A bit more time on the shed, the pictures do not show the con rods, but I made those as well and tried it as just the 6 wheels and again, works perfectly, no fettling required.
You're on a roll......... ;)

I wondered if you'd used that sort of jig for milling the axles, as I made one recently while I was waiting for some parts to turn up in the mail. Not an original design in my case, as a friend who works in the ride-on scales made one a while ago for milling keyways.

Now the $64 question, how are you keeping the tapped holes for the grub screw and the crankpin in line from one crank to the next?

I was thinking of making a jig based on the one I use for drilling crankpin holes in wheel castings, to hold the cranks in a fixed position while drilling for the grub screw.

Regards,
Graeme
OK, the cranks are not a definitive thing. I use the lathe to take the steel down to to size and centre drill at 4mm. Then I pop the crank into the vice and use a steel rule to centre it and drill a 2.5mm hole ready for the grub screw. I the turn the crank on it's side, use a 2.5mm drill bit in the grub screw hole to eye centre the drill bit equal distance between the vice jaws, it's pretty easy to see when it's straight. I then use a 4mm upside down spot drill to centre the mill bed so that it slides inside the 4mm centre hole, once this is set, I zero the DRO and move the bed 9mm and the drill a 2.5mm hole ready for the crank pin bolt. The I tap both holes to 3mm thread and that's it. I could do with a jig to make this job easier, there is a lot of changing tools and collets but the end result seems good so far. Then I just saw and file off the round cranks to give it a flyweight effect. All crank pin bolts are turned from 4mm steel hex and then tapped to 3mm for 2.5mm and left just round for however long is needed for the con rod(s).
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by tom_tom_go » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:51 pm

How much are you selling these units for?

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:19 pm

tom_tom_go wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:51 pm How much are you selling these units for?
The 0-4-0 chassis runs at about £65 and the 0-6-0 chassis with the extra rear drive crank runs at about £100, an 0-6-0 chassis with no rear crank probably around £85 I would think. These are just rough as they do not really include any time as I am just doing them for fun :thumbup: Obviously I don't really take orders as I am not a business and one chassis takes me over a week to make assuming I get a fair bit of shed time, so in reality around 2 weeks to build just one chassis, lol :lol:
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by FWLR » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:59 am

Well I think you are doing a nice job on them Steve. I am well impressed... :thumbright:

I will be putting an order in for both when funds are available. But one at a time.

Do they come with the R/C has well Steve....I am cheeky..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:35 am

FWLR wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:59 am Well I think you are doing a nice job on them Steve. I am well impressed... :thumbright:

I will be putting an order in for both when funds are available. But one at a time.

Do they come with the R/C has well Steve....I am cheeky..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hi Rod

That's ok, they take me ages to make so no rush on any orders :) No R/C I am afraid as just the RX/ESC is around £45 these days. The motors are 12v to 24v unless otherwise requested, however the one in the video is a 12-24v motor being run on about 8.2v and it works ok, but would need more voltage to pull heavy loads. :thumbup:
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:33 pm

Well that's the first two completed (apart from buying one motor as it's shared at the moment).

The 0-6-0 is just about as short as I can get it, but the 0-4-0 I can make pretty much as short as the wheels fit to as long as I need, pretty handy as I might build myself a couple of bogie motor units at some point in the future and make another 0-4-0 0-4-0 diesel unit.

For now I just have to decide what bodies I can start to build for the chassis, though the first one I intend to make into the Whisbech / Upwell tram type thing.

I think at some point I will try a steam outline electric but that will take some more planning and designing to get it to work.

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Last edited by -steves- on Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by GTB » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:03 am

Thanks for that. Your description kicked my mind out of a rut. For some reason I had got it fixed in my head when machining cranks to drill the axle hole, then drill and tap for the crankpin and finally drill and tap for the grub screw. Sigh.........

By using the sequence of axle, then grub screw and finally the crankpin, only a simple drilling fixture is needed. I'm waiting on some bits again, so I knocked one up yesterday afternoon.

The photo shows the fixture that I made earlier for machining the quartering flats on the left and the fixture to hold the crank while drilling and tapping for the crankpin on the right. I use a standard size axle for locos, so I only need one set of fixtures for outside cranks.

Outside Crank Jigs.jpg
Outside Crank Jigs.jpg (54.12 KiB) Viewed 6172 times

The only reason they are machined all over is that the only suitable size piece of square bar under the bench was hot rolled steel and far from square, so the surfaces needed cleaning up. I used a fly cutter instead of a milling cutter, as the mill scale on hot rolled steel is as abrasive as the skin on an iron casting and fly cutters are a lot easier to sharpen than a milling cutter.

The axle retaining screw in the quartering fixture is positioned diagonally to use it as a marker, so if it is always facing forward in the vice the quartering flats will be at 90deg when the fixture is changed end for end.

It's a bit hard to see, but there is a flat milled on the 'axle' end sticking out of the crank drilling fixture, effectively it is just a stub axle sticking out of half a quartering jig, but is machined in one piece to maintain alignment.

With a DRO on the mill and a self-centering 4 jaw chuck in the lathe, making these fixtures was quick and easy. I'm not a great fan of jigs/fixtures, so the simpler the better.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by FWLR » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:53 am

They do look the business Steve...Could a 0-4-0 be used has a power bogie....Are you getting what I am looking at for my Railcar...... :roll:

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:52 pm

GTB wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:03 am Thanks for that. Your description kicked my mind out of a rut. For some reason I had got it fixed in my head when machining cranks to drill the axle hole, then drill and tap for the crankpin and finally drill and tap for the grub screw. Sigh.........

By using the sequence of axle, then grub screw and finally the crankpin, only a simple drilling fixture is needed. I'm waiting on some bits again, so I knocked one up yesterday afternoon.

The photo shows the fixture that I made earlier for machining the quartering flats on the left and the fixture to hold the crank while drilling and tapping for the crankpin on the right. I use a standard size axle for locos, so I only need one set of fixtures for outside cranks.


Outside Crank Jigs.jpg


The only reason they are machined all over is that the only suitable size piece of square bar under the bench was hot rolled steel and far from square, so the surfaces needed cleaning up. I used a fly cutter instead of a milling cutter, as the mill scale on hot rolled steel is as abrasive as the skin on an iron casting and fly cutters are a lot easier to sharpen than a milling cutter.

The axle retaining screw in the quartering fixture is positioned diagonally to use it as a marker, so if it is always facing forward in the vice the quartering flats will be at 90deg when the fixture is changed end for end.

It's a bit hard to see, but there is a flat milled on the 'axle' end sticking out of the crank drilling fixture, effectively it is just a stub axle sticking out of half a quartering jig, but is machined in one piece to maintain alignment.

With a DRO on the mill and a self-centering 4 jaw chuck in the lathe, making these fixtures was quick and easy. I'm not a great fan of jigs/fixtures, so the simpler the better.

Regards,
Graeme
Strangely enough and before seeing this post I was in the workshop today finishing off a batch of 12 wheels. While I was in there I decided that some sort of tool could prove useful of doing cranks. Unfortunately I did not have the same idea as you as that would have been far quicker and easier to make. But I took a bit of 1" square block, milled out two of the sides to give me something to grip in the vice that won't move and will always be flat compared to the mill head. Then turned it over, put it in the vice and used a fly cutter to ensure the top was parallel with the bottom. I then milled out one end by 4mm deep (which is the shoulder of the length of my cranks) then I am going to drill a 4mm hole in it to take a cut off of axle, which will have a side milled flat. This will be held in the tool with a grub screw (or two) from the side and the crank slid over it and held with a grub screw. The top will than have a slot milled in it so that when I drill the crank I won't be drilling the tool. It's not finished yet, but when it is I will post up a picture.

Love this finish on your tooling, very neat, unlike my very rough finishes. :thumbup:
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:56 pm

FWLR wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:53 am They do look the business Steve...Could a 0-4-0 be used has a power bogie....Are you getting what I am looking at for my Railcar...... :roll:
I am not sure exactly what you mean as this will always have outside cranks where as the power bogies I have seen generally have no cranks or con rods and everything is held inside the unit. I think Essel do a power bogie that I am thinking of. I have not worked out how to do a 4 wheel drive power bogie with no cranks and the downside to power bogies I have seen is that the motor is usually mounted vertically.

Do you have a larger picture of what you are looking for and I can have a think and see if I can knock something up to suit :)
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by Busted Bricks » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:12 pm

Those chassis are really nice. If you get fed up cutting out frames and connecting rods by hand let me know. They wouldn't cost a lot to laser cut.

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:41 pm

Busted Bricks wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:12 pm Those chassis are really nice. If you get fed up cutting out frames and connecting rods by hand let me know. They wouldn't cost a lot to laser cut.
Thanks, appreciate that, we will see how it goes :thumbup:
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by FWLR » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:04 am

Something for this Steve.

DSCN4059.JPG
DSCN4059.JPG (415.42 KiB) Viewed 6659 times

Cranks wouldn't be needed really, just the ability to move like front and rear bogies. Yes the ones I have seen are all with the motor pointing up. I want to replace the one in my Railcar with a power bogie. I would be using the motor as is, so it's a question of if it can be done.... :thumbright:

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm

FWLR wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:04 am Something for this Steve.


DSCN4059.JPG


Cranks wouldn't be needed really, just the ability to move like front and rear bogies. Yes the ones I have seen are all with the motor pointing up. I want to replace the one in my Railcar with a power bogie. I would be using the motor as is, so it's a question of if it can be done.... :thumbright:
I would think anything is possible, but for something that specific I would need the entire railcar at hand to measure and see what would fit. A shame you are not closer or you could have popped over and we could have seen if we could have made something to fit.

What is wrong with the one that's in it?
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:08 pm

GTB wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:03 am Thanks for that. Your description kicked my mind out of a rut. For some reason I had got it fixed in my head when machining cranks to drill the axle hole, then drill and tap for the crankpin and finally drill and tap for the grub screw. Sigh.........

By using the sequence of axle, then grub screw and finally the crankpin, only a simple drilling fixture is needed. I'm waiting on some bits again, so I knocked one up yesterday afternoon.

The photo shows the fixture that I made earlier for machining the quartering flats on the left and the fixture to hold the crank while drilling and tapping for the crankpin on the right. I use a standard size axle for locos, so I only need one set of fixtures for outside cranks.


Outside Crank Jigs.jpg


The only reason they are machined all over is that the only suitable size piece of square bar under the bench was hot rolled steel and far from square, so the surfaces needed cleaning up. I used a fly cutter instead of a milling cutter, as the mill scale on hot rolled steel is as abrasive as the skin on an iron casting and fly cutters are a lot easier to sharpen than a milling cutter.

The axle retaining screw in the quartering fixture is positioned diagonally to use it as a marker, so if it is always facing forward in the vice the quartering flats will be at 90deg when the fixture is changed end for end.

It's a bit hard to see, but there is a flat milled on the 'axle' end sticking out of the crank drilling fixture, effectively it is just a stub axle sticking out of half a quartering jig, but is machined in one piece to maintain alignment.

With a DRO on the mill and a self-centering 4 jaw chuck in the lathe, making these fixtures was quick and easy. I'm not a great fan of jigs/fixtures, so the simpler the better.

Regards,
Graeme
Well my attempt is now finished and seems to work well too. Once set up once for zero it's very quick and easy to pop a new crank on and drill it, it will save me sooooo much time going forwards :thumbup: Thanks for the idea of making a tool for this, both yourself and Ian. :thumbup:

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by -steves- on Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by GTB » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:51 pm

-steves- wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:08 pm Once set up once for zero it's very quick and easy to pop a new crank on and drill it, it will save me sooooo much time going forwards
My initial idea was similar to that, except it would have located the crank from the crankpin hole, so I could drill the hole for the grub screw. Then I had a better idea.....

Saving time on batches of parts is what jigs are about. I even went to the trouble of making a spindle stop for the lathe, to reduce setup time for turning rolling stock axles.

The finish on the jigs is only like that because of the mill scale on the bits of steel I used. The flycutter could go blunt halfway through a cut and had to be resharpened multiple times for the axle milling jig, so the final cut was always with a newly sharpened tool, just to keep things square...... :roll:

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:00 pm

GTB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:51 pm

I even went to the trouble of making a spindle stop for the lathe, to reduce setup time for turning rolling stock axles.

Regards,
Graeme
I will be honest and confess I have no idea what a spindle stop is or how it works? :oops:
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by -steves- » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:27 pm

Oily Rag wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:06 pm Hi Steve,
I wouldn't presume to explain but the best one I have seen is here:-
http://www.homews.co.uk/index.html
Harold Hall is quite an amazing engineer particularly in the model engineering field and you will find a large range of gizmos and gadgets that can easily made in the home workshop.
Simply a mandrel or spindle stop allows you to poke a piece of material down your chuck and the hole in the mandrel to a stop so you can repeat the operation accurately on a number of items. Once set for a given component, each component will be the same. its not quite the same as using a DRO to set everything.
Great website, thanks :D
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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by tom_tom_go » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:02 pm

Glad you said that Steve, neither did I!

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Re: A bit of time in the shed

Post by FWLR » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:37 am

-steves- wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm
FWLR wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:04 am Something for this Steve.


DSCN4059.JPG


Cranks wouldn't be needed really, just the ability to move like front and rear bogies. Yes the ones I have seen are all with the motor pointing up. I want to replace the one in my Railcar with a power bogie. I would be using the motor as is, so it's a question of if it can be done.... :thumbright:
I would think anything is possible, but for something that specific I would need the entire railcar at hand to measure and see what would fit. A shame you are not closer or you could have popped over and we could have seen if we could have made something to fit.

What is wrong with the one that's in it?
Well apparently the wheelbase on the Railcar is a bit to long and it was suggested to try a powered bogie to try and get it to run on curves, it at the moment only needs to see a curve and it starts getting nervous..... :lol: :lol:

Not to worry mate, I will perceive with it and see what I can come up with. Thanks anyway... :thumbright: :thumbright:

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