Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

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Peter Butler
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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by Peter Butler » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:28 pm

philipy wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:36 pm
Peter Butler wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:34 am
I do have trouble imagining how you can integrate the gnomes though!
Integrated gnomes!
My trigger finger is itching already!
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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:36 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:34 am Hi Peter, I think I must agree with your wife about 'Toytown', I'm sure with your knowledge and skills with creating prototypical railway stock she expects no less than an accurate and well presented infrastructure.
I do have trouble imagining how you can integrate the gnomes though!
My construction methods are decidedly at the light railway end of the spectrum, but that tends to reduce the impact on the garden, so all is good from the missus' point of view. The 24' by 14' area in the angle between the dining room and the kitchen is out of sight enough that I won't have too many planning permission problems, so I am planning to put the main station there, and work in a continuous run in what is, to all intends and purposes, the only reasonably flat bit. It will have to run at about 2' off the ground to ease operating, but like I said, it is reasonably hidden.

After that I will keep it fairly lightweight going up the hill to reduce the visual impact until I reach the shed. I have a plan to put a couple of storage roads in there, so I won't have to lug everything up from Nibelheim when I want to play trains. The top station will be behind the shed, and thus out of Herself's line of sight from the kitchen window. If I put it there it will give me an incentive to deal with a scrubby corner of the garden. The only potentially controversial bit will be the mid-point station, which is likely to be a loop with a siding trailing off one end KSR style - if I can afford a 14' break in the climb, and still make it to the shed. That will be in line of sight, but if I keep the buildings down to a removeable small station and goods shed, put away when not operating, so all should be good. Another point I have to consider is the amount of 'shelling' that the backyard gets from black walnuts/squirrels. Any building left outside close to the trees will need to be able to survive a direct hit from a walnut from anything up to 60' up!

Philipy - I like the integrated gnomes. :D

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by philipy » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:51 pm

I'm told by SWMBO that gnome stands for Guarding Naturally Over Mother Earth.

Sorry Peter, you can have your thread back now! :oops:
Philip

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:32 am

I like your explanation of G-N-O-M-E.

I managed to get a good bit of a second steel bodied van built over the weekend despite the fact that I was, as usual, moderately busy. Modelling time tends to be an hour here and an hour there, but that works rather well when you are waiting for things to dry. I drew the van out Friday evening, then cut the sides and ends, and made the underframe Saturday. Sunday evening I managed to get the angle iron framing attached to the basic body, then today it has been doors, door catches, and HINGES. The roof was laminated, so tomorrow it will be handbrake gear - about a 20 minute job, and then I shall have to put it aside until Thursday when the weather forecast claims it will be warm enough to spray paint outdoors. They were forecasting snow showers for tonight!

Question now is, 'what do I do to occupy my mental health breaks until Thursday?' I am almost to the point where I think I need to build a carriage for the walking freight, but on the whole I am a bit too fond of starting carriages and never finishing them, so perhaps prudence dictates another open. However, the KSR had some interesting four wheelers in the early days, though the thirds were the typical 'knee zipper' compartment stock of the era, looking decidedly ungenerous in their dimensions. The were probably as short as 15,' but they could have been as much as 17,' which would have made them about as roomy as any narrow gauge stock in the UK of GB&I.

The firsts look as though they had a non-smoking compartment, and a small smoking saloon. The small saloon is suggested by the fact they had seven windows, including the two doors, a side. They are definitely different to the usual DHR bug box. The other early KSR vehicle that packed a lot of character in a small space was the combined Mail and Guard's Van. This looks like a stretched version of the DHR vehicle of the period, and of course, it sits higher. There was also an interesting little saloon with a balcony at one end, and a 'deck light' in the roof, which may have been an officials saloon, as it seems to be a one off, though pictures of the KSR from 1903-1907 are few and far between. None of them look to have been more than 15' or 15'6" long, but the photos are a bit short on features to scale from. Certainly, I am incline to think they are 14 or 15 foot long when I compare them to the steel vans.

Rather unhelpfully the only dimension I have been able to turn up for them was from a description in "Indian English" that described them as "17' buffer to buffer" leaving it a bit unclear - at least to me - whether they were 17' over the buffers, or 17' over the headstocks. If the former, then they were about 14'6" or 15' over the body allowing about 12" - 15" each of the ABC couplings on either end of the vehicle. Can anyone shed any light on this?

More pondering required...

Cheers,
Peter in Va.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by invicta280 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:32 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:28 pm
philipy wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:36 pm
Peter Butler wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:34 am
I do have trouble imagining how you can integrate the gnomes though!
Integrated gnomes!
My trigger finger is itching already!
Haha! I used to live in a town in New Zealand that suffered ( if that is the right word) from a rogue shooter who would strike at night shooting the heads off of garden gnomes with a .22 cal rifle.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:40 am

I bought myself a bit of time on the carriage project by building another closed wagon, which turned out to be roughly the same size and design as the previous one, but I made the (non-functional) door mechanism a little differently. One thing I learned years ago about strings of identical wagons is that, unless they have just come out of the works as new builds, there are always tiny little differences between them. This is especially true of narrow gauge railways where there seemed to be a migrating pool of bits used to keep less decrepit vehicles operational.
DHR 119
DHR 119
dhrcar119.jpg (262.19 KiB) Viewed 6903 times
The carriage project has re-emerged thanks to encountering the above photograph of DHR No.119 built Tindharia 1902, and retired in 1968. I will add a picture credit when I rediscover the photographer's name. It looks as though the last time it was repanelled it got plywood, galvy sheet, or aluminium sheet put on rather than renewing it the old fashioned way. CIE did much the same thing with some of its NG stock, so I am going to go with the flow and do the flush sides - they are easier to model anyway.

I think my version may be a tadge bigger the original, as mine is a scale 13'6", which is about 7/8th of an inch longer than the wagons. I am also going for drop lights (non-functional in this case) rather than sunshades. I have started on the wooden frame, drew out the sides on Bristol board, and raided the Binnie bits box for W irons and wheels. The underframe is separate in this case so I can go ahead and paint it before fitting it to the vehicle, rather than leaving the running gear until last. Photos when I get a bit further on.

Cheers,
Peter in VA
Last edited by IrishPeter on Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:35 am

OK, here is the news that is fit to print.

The wagons have received a few improvements. Dummy handbrake gear has been fitted, and the location marked for the benefit of shunters and brakemen by the strategic use of white paint.
The wagons
The wagons
IMG_4461.JPG (39.05 KiB) Viewed 6875 times
Wagons
Wagons
IMG_4460.JPG (46.52 KiB) Viewed 6875 times
The main project at the moment is a four-wheel third based on a DHR vehicle originally built in 1902. Here is a three quarter view of the half completed carriage. The handrails and door handles are just lengths of cut to length and bent to shape (or vice versa) and painted before being glued into small holes drilled in the Bristol board structure.
Coach 3/4
Coach 3/4
IMG_4464.JPG (38.91 KiB) Viewed 6875 times
For once I am actually getting on with the interior... The 'lino' and the seat covers are shelf paper scrounged off the Missus.
Interior 1
Interior 1
IMG_4462.JPG (44.77 KiB) Viewed 6875 times
Interior 2
Interior 2
IMG_4465.JPG (39.71 KiB) Viewed 6875 times
So how do the passengers fit? The figure is a bit small being LGB, but there is enough room there that a proper 5/8th scale person would fit.
Interior 3
Interior 3
IMG_4466.JPG (35.27 KiB) Viewed 6875 times
Having established that it is time to glue t'other side on. The three clips are holding the top rail in position whilst it dries. The rubber bands are holding the side on whilst it dries. This side will have short handrails thanks to the floating pool of bits theory of narrow gauge railway maintenance - or the lack of it!
Not to be Moved!
Not to be Moved!
IMG_4469.JPG (48.08 KiB) Viewed 6875 times
Flash photo as a bonus. Not that great a shot, as it washes out the colour, but it gives you an idea of what it looks like on the rails. Bit of touch up work needed with the paint. White lines are an occupational hazard when one used Bristol Board. A felt marker or a steady hand with the paint brush will fix that.
On the rails
On the rails
IMG_4468.JPG (46.47 KiB) Viewed 6875 times
That's it for now!

Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by ge_rik » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:15 am

I do like the look of that coach, Peter. Will look great out in the garden.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:45 pm

The roof was rolled last night, and left to dry on a former overnight. The remaining hand rails will go on today, if I do not get distracted. It also needs its handbrake, but that will have to wait until I have some more brass rod. (Edit: I didn't get distracted - coach roof was painted and handrails fitted Sat.)

I am also drawing out the next vehicle, which is loosely based on a Kalka-Simla Railway TPO, so exposed solebars on this one and perhaps full panelled, rather than it getting the 'flushed front door' look. I am also wondering about giving it a cream and chocolate livery rather than my usual dark maroon to represent an earlier era. Whether or not I do that may well be determined by, of all things, the weather forecast. I have sort of had the idea that the FET had survived into the 1950s and was doing its best to maintain and 'update' its rolling stock on a limited budget - hence the flushed panelled carriage.

Today saw the start of some more serious ground clearance outside ready for the first section of the railway to go in. Unfortunately, the area designated ended up over run with ivy in the years before we bought it. Ivy as ground cover isn't difficult to remove, though at times it took my full 16 stone hanging off it for the root system to yield, but it is bloody near impossible to stop it coming back. :scratch: The locals say cut it hard back, and then keep going after it with white vinegar in a sprayer. The only thing worse for taking off and running rampant is Virgin's Bower, but it seems to be primarily a climber, so it is less of a pain for those of us with horizontal, or lightly graded preoccupations!

Cheers,
Peter in VA
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Mail/Guard's Van

Post by IrishPeter » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:08 pm

Drew the aforementioned out this morning. Now I have to get cutting because, if the weather forecast is anywhere near right (you may stop laughing... now!) it will be warm enough to rattle can outside on Sunday - it will be around 65F. For reference, it is currently 31F and snowing gently. I have decided to do both the panelling and the more complicated livery on this one, mainly because the weather will give me an opportunity to pre-paint the layers before sticking them together. My abilities with a paint brush only slightly exceed those I have with a soldering iron!

Surveying has started in earnest outside. The biggest job will be to erect the raised (18" - 24") underpinnings for the main station and steam up area. I am heading towards using composite decking boards for that section. If I get 20-25 years out of them I shall be around retirement age by the time they start to fail, and ready for the bad back club raised circuit. I reckon timber would need to be replaced in about 10 years more due to warpage than rot, as I tend to prefer steel posts. As the ground rises very sharply immediately behind the house where the previous owners terraced the garden to stop the build up of earth behind the kitchen, after about 20 feet of running it will become a ground level line, then weave its way up the slope. The gradients will be quite steep, so this may well be an all battery line, unless I cannot resist the temptation to let Roundhouse relieve me of some money for a Bertie, or perhaps something more ambitious.

At least rolling stock building is going well.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Mail/Guard's Van

Post by IrishPeter » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:22 am

This one is another mésalliance between a KSR prototype and one from the DHR. As usual the body is Bristol board, and as the interior is relatively hidden I decided just three layers - panelling, and then two laminations for the body itself.

Here we have the three layer. Drop light layer (top); outer layer (bottom right) and panelling (bottom left). Ready for painting between services on Sunday, and lamination on Monday.
The three layers
The three layers
8MarF.JPG (35.47 KiB) Viewed 7090 times
When finished the side should look like this, but in brown and cream, with a red panel for the TPO end's post box.
Dry run
Dry run
8MarE.JPG (30.77 KiB) Viewed 7090 times
The ends have already been laminated as they are a simple paint job - black on the outside and cream on the inside. Guard's end, with its lookout windows shown.
Guard's end
Guard's end
8MarG.JPG (35.45 KiB) Viewed 7090 times
The third saloon now has its roof seen from the short rails side...
DHR Saloon
DHR Saloon
8MarD.JPG (39.17 KiB) Viewed 7090 times
Here is a flash pic of the same vehicle...
DHR Saloon (flash)
DHR Saloon (flash)
8MarC.JPG (45.35 KiB) Viewed 7090 times
I do need to touch up those white lines, but that is a five minute job for when I do not have time for anything more serious.

And I forgot to include a piccy of the dummy brake gear on the vans when I mentioned that a couple of posts back, so here we go...
8MarB.JPG
8MarB.JPG (44.75 KiB) Viewed 7090 times
After the mail van a couple of more wagons will be in order, then another carriage. Then I really need to get some track laid!

That's it for now.

Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by Andrew » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:43 pm

Your latest rolling stock's looking wonderful Peter - the metal bodied vans are wonderful, and I really like the look of the mail van. Looking forward to seeing it all heading up the fearsome grades you describe - I do hope you manage to make it steam-worked...

All the best,

Andrew

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:35 pm

Andrew wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:43 pm <snip>Looking forward to seeing it all heading up the fearsome grades you describe - I do hope you manage to make it steam-worked...

All the best,

Andrew
I know that I could work it by steam, the question is do I want to torture a rather expensive steam locomotive that way on a regular basis? When I get surveying I am going to see if I can keep the grade to the KSR's 3%, which is less savage than the original S&CT's worst gradient which was 30 feet of 4% with a short length of 5% in the middle! The issue tends to be wear on the motion more than anything else. Roundhouse's locomotives are extremely game, and I have discovered it is extremely hard to stall them; however, heavy loads and steep grades are a recipe for high rates of wear. I think there may be a prohibition on loads above 10 lightweight four wheelers. At least as it is all one uphill one way, and all downhill the other the runaway problem can be contained even with manual locos. ;)

The side of the mail/guard's van were laminated today. I had hoped to get the underframe built, but we got hung up at the doctor's. so we lost an hour there. I am also "beat" after the weekend. Hopefully better results tomorrow.

Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by Andrew » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:19 pm

Fair enough re not wanting to wear out your motive power - but the occasional steam special will be great!

I worry a little about that sort of thing with my line - sharp-ish curves and much of the line at 1 in 50, but mitigate the risks by hardly running any trains! The short loops help too, by limiting train lengths - 3 bogie carriages, 6 or 7 4-wheeled vehicles or about a dozen slate wagons.

Hope you managed to make the progress you wanted to on your new van. I seem to have very little time for modelling at the moment, but there's a huge backlog of projects I'd like to be working on piling up in my head!

All the best,

Andrew.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:09 am

Andrew,

I would really prefer a steam hauled line, but right now all my steamers are 45mm gauge, and there is a certain shortage of mad money for the time being. I think a lot of the problem in Arizona was dust, so I would be prepared to make a modest wager that it won't be anywhere near as bad here. I am trying to justify to myself buying a Bertie, or making a start on a Roundhouse 'George' kit, but given that I am not given to lavish expenditure it may be a while. In the meantime various battery electrics will be holding the fort.

In the end I got a fair bit done today. In the early morning brain fog I managed to get a three compartment 3rd class four wheel carriage drawn out. The beginnings of the next project. I also got to the local hardware store for some bits and pieces before managing to spend an odd half hour early this afternoon making the underframe for the Mail/Guards van. The sides and ends were attached early this evening, followed by the stiffening bars along the top edges of the sides about an hour later, then the running gear and buffer-couplings also went on. All that is left is fitting out, a roof, hands rails, and a few other details. Photos tomorrow - probably.

SWMBO and I also managed to have the 'this is where I want to put the railway' talk and it went well. She was a bit surprised about the main station being raised above ground level, but I am 50 this year, and I have noticed that the deck is slowly getting further away. The rest is ground level complete with 1 in 33 grades to climb up to the shed where the other terminus will be. If I go any further than that it will be quite a project. The character of the line is still hovering uncertainly between Darjeeling Himalayan Railway and Kalka Simla Railway, so I guess it is going to be successful in being my own beast!

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by Andrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:57 am

How about a Regner? They'd manage your gradients with ease, are gauge adjustable, relatively cheap, and full of character - just imagine a Konrad or Wilma with a few cosmetic mods (big Darjeeling style lamps?) and a garish Indian NG style colour scheme!

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:01 pm

I'll give the Regner idea some thought. I won't be able to say with certainty what the steepest grade will be until I get out there with the surveying tools, but some sort of geared locomotive would be an idea if I have too much of the really steep stuff. Realistically, if I have to go steeper than 1 in 30 for any distance then probably it is gears time, and it will have the advantage of keeping the top speed realistic.

I tend to prefer the older liveries, which tended to be dark green or black for locomotives, but the carriage liveries tend to be more interesting - for example cream and brown, with the cream dominant, or dark red, rather than deep brownish red or the ninety shades of blue that have prevailed since the 1960s.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Photo Round-up 19/03/19

Post by IrishPeter » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:52 am

I have been able to get down in the basement again the last couple of days and seem to have got quite a bit more done without really trying.
Mail Van 1
Mail Van 1
19Mar trains1.JPG (37.47 KiB) Viewed 6634 times
I am a long way on with the van with the partition between the mail and guard's compartments in position, and the roof rolled. Lots of little finishing jobs at this stage - handrails, roof stretchers, maybe a basic interior, and of course, the essential letter flap.
3Q view
3Q view
19Mar trains2.JPG (41.12 KiB) Viewed 6634 times
Here is a three-quarter view showing the guard's end windows. The Kalka-Simla influence is winning at the moment, so it will also need some brake pipes when I can cobble some up.

Third Class Coach
This vehicles dimensions were guestimated off some 1903/4 photos of the KSR, so it is only intended to look the part.
The drawing
The drawing
19Mar trains4.JPG (30.44 KiB) Viewed 6634 times
Stage 1 is to draw out the needed parts on 100lb Bristol board. Three laminations here - panelling, body, and then droplights. Then the cutting out begins.
Panelled side
Panelled side
19Mar trains3.JPG (31.69 KiB) Viewed 6634 times
In this case the panels and the main body have been laminated early on, as following KSR practice the body is going to be cream without the panelling being picked out in brown, though the window shades will be brown. I cut the windows and panelling before dividing the sheet into the three layers as that seems to make it easier for me to line things up.
The SAS Sachsen Coach
The SAS Sachsen Coach
19Mar trains5.JPG (33.99 KiB) Viewed 6634 times
The SAS Coach
The SAS-SAR Sachsen Wagonfabrik coach is being worked on again. Size wise it does not overwhelm the DHR/KSR four wheelers, though weight-wise it may end up marshalled towards the front of the train as it is plywood not Bristol board.
Passenger stock so far
Passenger stock so far
19Mar trains9.JPG (36.92 KiB) Viewed 6634 times
Here is the FET's passenger stock. DHR saloon as running in the 1950s; hybrid DHR/KSR mail and guard van; and the SAS coach.
Passenger stock look t'other way
Passenger stock look t'other way
19Mar trains7.JPG (44.32 KiB) Viewed 6634 times
And here is a view from the other direction.

Work Outside...
has begun. I suppose I ought to start a separate thread for that, but the surveyors were out with a spirit level and blocks of wood getting some preliminary gradients today. It seems that 1 in 33 will do the trick, so things may well end up more KSR than DHR.

That's all for now!

2-1

Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by ge_rik » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:32 pm

Looks like a fair bit of progress, and a few sods are being dug as well. Hopefully, there will be an inaugural run before too long.... :thumbup:

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Re: Rolling Stock for the Far End Tramway

Post by IrishPeter » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:31 am

As anyone who knows me can tell you I tend to be motivated by deadlines more than anything else. Until I have a deadline looming I will ding around, read, do research, chase various rabbit trails, and generally amuse myself whilst dealing with the routine. I guess it is a case of 'knowing one is about to be shot - or in this case inspected - focuses the mind splendidly.' I have my name down for a visit from the I. N. Spectre in a few months so I need something up and running by then.

Spring also promotes progress on the railway front, and with the Lent roses at their best, crocuses already with us, and the daffodils well on the way it is time for me to get moving. The temps are in the 45-55F bracket, and I think the hard frosts are done with for this year. I have not so much turned the first sod, as cleared ground, had the measuring tape out, moved some bricks, and laid in supplies from the building supply store. However, the next update should contain outdoor construction photos.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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