Running an MSS Loco on Solid Fuel & Multi Role Config

A very popular starting point for Live Steam. With their low cost comes a number of problems which can be discussed here
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Chris Cairns
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Running an MSS Loco on Solid Fuel & Multi Role Config

Post by Chris Cairns » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:18 pm

With the recent discussions about gas burners over on Farcebook, and a general lack of running activity in this Forum I decided to run my MSS kit built loco on solid fuel and record the details.

Sadly no opportunity for video as my kitchen is still on the "Deep Cleanse To Do" list whilst I've been busy resolving another water leak.

So standard Mamod loop (16 curves & 4 straights) soaked with oil & condensate, room temperature 17°C. 220 Steam Oil on Cylinders & Reverser/Regulator valve, 3 in 1 oil on all motion parts. Boiler filled with 75mls hot water from kettle for 1st run.

1st Run - On blocks safety valve started to weep at 01:45 mins but it took until 03:00 mins to get the loco running properly (it is still running in).

Ran for 06:21 mins pulling an MSS Tender for 25 laps of the oval. Total burn time just over 09:21 mins and about 1/3rd of usable boiler capacity (max to min on backplate) used.

2nd Run - I decided to run this straight away as soon as I had cleaned the deposits out of the burner tray and loaded new solid fuel, so no water added & no further lubrication carried out.

On blocks loco was running by 01:10 mins. It would not run as slow as the 1st run so regulator opened a bit more. Ran for 05:15 for 29 laps of the oval. Burner was still producing some steam but not enough to run the loco any more. Total burn time just over 07:23 (took a minute to couple up tender) and approx 1/4 of usable boiler capacity remaining.

Just recovering from my first winter "screaming kids" induced cold so the solid fuel caused another headache despite the extractor fan being on maximum output. Future running of this loco will now be with a meths burner.

Multi-role Loco - I would like to keep this loco in as near to original format as possible so that any modifications can be reversed.

Most owners tend to run these locos without the cab back fitted and that is what I've been doing so far.

I have obtained a second cab back in the same colour and intend cutting out the top half for a part open cab back but still using the retaining roof clip. A couple of clips fitted should hold a set of fire irons and a lamp.

It will have a meths burner fitted and I'll probably use one of my new Mamod 40PSI safety valves for more pressure.

I already had an MSS tender in the same colour although it was 45mm (now 32mm). So it will also run as a tender loco and I've been putting some thought into how it will be attached, etc.

Loco is currently cooling down after its running then will need wiped down, so I'll continue this discussion with some photos including the latest great product from the Peter Jones Loco Works which will feature on this multi-role loco.

Chris Cairns.

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Post by dougrail » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:48 pm

Thanks for that report Chris, much appreciated. I've never been fond of the solid fuel myself mind, doesn't seem efficient?

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Tender Loco Configuration

Post by Chris Cairns » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:06 pm

So as I do not want to permanently modify this loco & tender as most owners do, how will I get a decent coupling set-up to work properly.

The standard Mamod/MSS coupling has two parts. An enclosed hoop through which the coupling ring is fitted, and an open hook on top.

Image

Anyone who has run a Mamod/MSS train over a loosely laid oval of Mamod/MSS track will know that using the coupling rings in this manner can cause them to uncouple whilst travelling over the panel joints particularly at speed. So another solution is needed.

Image

So putting the coupling ring (with some difficulty) through the enclosed hoops on both the loco & the tender will produce a solid coupling which will not uncouple. However this is not a practical set-up when carrying out routine lubrication, etc. on the loco with the tender hanging off the upturned loco. So yet another solution is needed.

Image

So I've swapped the MSS coupling ring for one of the original Mamod key ring type coupling ring's (to reduce the gap between the loco & tender) and placed a slice of silicon tubing on the end of the open hook to hopefully prevent the coupling ring from lifting off. A manual test on the track confirms this combination works OK, but a running test will need to be conducted next.

So what about the gap between the tender & the loco - how does the Fireman cope with that? Some form of apron is required.

Image

I had previously seen the apron that MSR provided with their tenders so I contacted our MSR expert Peter Jones to see if he had any details like dimensions of these aprons.

Peter's response was to send me one of his MSR inspired tender aprons to try out. Unfortunately I had not realised who quickly the untreated steel would 'go off' so the surface corrosion in the following images is my fault (I need to clean up the edges of the tabs then get it primed before the damp conditions make painting useless again this year).

Image

The bent tabs at the end locate in the holes at the rear of the cab floor which are normally used to locate the bottom of cab back.

Image

I'll probably put a piece of half-rounded hard plastic rod on the underneath of the tender end to stop the apron cutting a groove in the tender floor as it moves sideways around the curves.

Image

And I'm not sure if two small magnets in my Fireman's boots would be enough to secure him whilst running or whether he will need to be glued to the apron. Anyone use magnets to secure their figures on running locos?

Image

Chris Cairns.

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Post by Chris Cairns » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:22 pm

dougrail wrote:doesn't seem efficient?
If you've read the article "Mamod SL1 - A Buyer's Guide To Steam" by Jack Wheldon he proved in 1981 that the solid fuel was better than meths, and concluded that the poor performance of solid fuel in the SL1 was due to the design of the burner tray and the firebox (i.e. the space between the chassis frames & the combustion chamber). The late Peter Longfils found that Esbit tablets were a lot better and modified his burner tray so their tablets would fit.

Solid fuel goes "off" very quickly as it soaks up water from the atmosphere. I've removed all the solid fuel that came with my locos & railway sets but not much of it was in the zip lock bags so it is only suitable for use in my stationary engines (it tends to explode when the water in the tablet is heated up).

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Post by Superbiker_uk » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:27 am

That's an excellent post Chris and the info about the solid fuel is very interesting. Thanks for posting and also for showing the tender apron on your loco.

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Post by The Denying Dutchman » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:14 pm

Just out of curiosity, (my SL1k came without a burner) how much Esbit tablets fit into the burner?

Don't worry, I'm not planning to run my loco on Esbit. ;)
Paul

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Post by Superbiker_uk » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:33 pm

The Denying Dutchman:91198 wrote:Just out of curiosity, (my SL1k came without a burner) how much Esbit tablets fit into the burner?
Hi DD - see this post and file from over in reference section:
Chris Cairns:71147 wrote:
MSS and Mamod Fuel Tray - a useful file by the late Peter Longfils to explain who to modify the solid fuel tray to use Esbit tablets.

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Click to download file

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Post by Chris Cairns » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:40 pm

Peter Longfils modified his burner tray so that 2 Esbit tablets could be fitted without cutting (the Mamod/MSS tablets need cutting in half to fit in their burner trays)

I've attached his file to this discussion again for your reference.

Forest Classics do a vapouriser meths burner which is supposed to slot into the burner tray with some modification - http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/burner_lb1.htm However the one I bought when I got my first RS1 did not have a stepped side like the one in that photo so I've never managed to get it low enough down in the burner tray to get an efficient flame (needs a lot more metal grinding off but it is very tough). I have heard from other owners that these burners do work.

Chris Cairns.

Image
Click to download file

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Meths Burner Comparison

Post by Chris Cairns » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:44 pm

So having decided to reserve my accumulation of solid fuel for my stationary steam engines I decided to do a timed session with a meths burner for a comparison in the same loco.

I used my best meths burner, an IP Eng 3 wick burner originally fitted to an IP Jane, which has the best type of chassis spacer which actually holds the burner tube in the right place (later versions have a slot cut into a standard Mamod/MSS chassis spacer which is actually supposed to be mounted upside down but I've seen photos of a few bent burner tubes because owners have mounted it the wrong way up).

Kitchen temperature 20°C, water & lubrication as before, and 16mls of clear meths in burner.

1st run - It took 03:25 mins to get the loco running on blocks properly, then completed 08:34 mins running for 54 laps of the standard oval. Burner continued producing steam for another 02:10 mins but loco would only turn wheels on blocks by then. Total burn time 15:00 mins and 1/4 of usable boiler water capacity left.

Interestingly at no time during this run did the safety valve start weeping.

So looks like the meths burner applies the heating more linearly across the boiler thus taking longer to reach running temperature. And this burner burns as designed with the meths safely running out before the water (just as well as the sight glass plastic has started to craze already and that was only on solid fuel - Mamod say these melt between 150 & 170°C).

Chris Cairns.

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Post by Lner fan Sam » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:11 pm

Are you going to try a gas burner on this loco as part of these tests Chris?
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Post by Chris Cairns » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:36 pm

Not at present Sam.

As you know I have a PPS box burner but it is not fitted with a chassis spacer, and similarly I have a Bix ceramic burner which is also not fitted with a chassis spacer. So I would need to get a couple of chassis spacers, access to a pillar drill and tap the burners to mount those chassis spacers - all very low on my "To Do" list for now.

I'm not happy with the extra heat these gas burners produce when used in a soft soldered boiler, and my supply of sight glass plastic's is a bit low now having sent a few out to others this year.

Chris Cairns.

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Post by The Denying Dutchman » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:13 am

Chris Cairns:91201 wrote:Peter Longfils modified his burner tray so that 2 Esbit tablets could be fitted without cutting (the Mamod/MSS tablets need cutting in half to fit in  their burner trays)
I'm a bit surprised that the Loco was able to run at all with only two tablets!
Paul

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Post by IrishPeter » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:11 am

I hope that the Esbit tablets perform better than the "camel dung" solid fuel tablets that some Mamods ran on in the 1980s. They put out fewer BUTs than real Camel dung.

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Tender Aprons and Magnetic Boots

Post by jameswmorgan » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:47 pm

Hi - first post.
I'm running an MSS side-tank which I have modified to include Radio Control. I would love to know how to get hold of a tender apron, as I can't get my 'driver' on the left side of the cab owing to the servo (which operates the steam regulator) being in the way.
I also found that some self-adhesive magnetic strip under his boots keeps him sufficiently anchored.
(I'm afraid it won't let me upload a picture)

Jim

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Post by Chris Cairns » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:58 pm

Hi Jim,

Welcome to the Mamod sub-Forum (been very quiet here recently) & the main Forums.

You will need to ask Peter Jones (Superbiker_uk) whether he will be releasing more of these tender aprons. He has posted above in this Discussion, just click the PM symbol at the bottom of his posting to send him a Private Message.

You should be able to attach a photo to postings, although myfreeforums does behave strangely some times (if you have a space within your photo's filename it will probably not upload). otherwise you need to host your photo elsewhere on-line and use the IMG code to embed it in your posting, see here for more details - http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about5505.html

Look forward to seeing some photos of your radio control on the MSS loco in due course.

Chris Cairns.

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Post by jameswmorgan » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:09 pm

Chris Cairns:91229 wrote:Hi Jim,

Welcome to the Mamod sub-Forum (been very quiet here recently) & the main Forums.

You will need to ask Peter Jones (Superbiker_uk) whether he will be releasing more of these tender aprons. He has posted above in this Discussion, just click the PM symbol at the bottom of his posting to send him a Private Message.

You should be able to attach a photo to postings, although myfreeforums does behave strangely some times (if you have a space within your photo's filename it will probably not upload). otherwise you need to host your photo elsewhere on-line and use the IMG code to embed it in your posting, see here for more details - http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about5505.html

Look forward to seeing some photos of your radio control on the MSS loco in due course.

Chris Cairns.
Thanks, Chris.
I'll contact SB tomorrow. I think the image may have been too large, so I'll apply some shrinkage and try again.
Jim

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Cab, Radio Control, Tender and Bloke

Post by jameswmorgan » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:58 pm

Image

Success with the picture. The plan is to further the R/C by adding another servo to operate the reverser, but I'm trying to work out a mechanism whereby you don't have to keep the R/C engaged all the time. We now have a Maplins in Huddersfield, so something might turn up. However, it's way down the line.
As it were.

Jim

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Re: Meths Burner Comparison

Post by The Denying Dutchman » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:30 pm

Chris Cairns:91209 wrote:So having decided to reserve my accumulation of solid fuel for my stationary steam engines I decided to do a timed session with a meths burner for a comparison in the same loco.

I used my best meths burner, an IP Eng 3 wick burner originally fitted to an IP Jane, which has the best type of chassis spacer which actually holds the burner tube in the right place (later versions have a slot cut into a standard Mamod/MSS chassis spacer which is actually supposed to be mounted upside down but I've seen photos of a few bent burner tubes because owners have mounted it the wrong way up).

Kitchen temperature 20°C, water & lubrication as before, and 16mls of clear meths in burner.

1st run - It took 03:25 mins to get the loco running on blocks properly, then completed 08:34 mins running for 54 laps of the standard oval. Burner continued producing steam for another 02:10 mins but loco would only turn wheels on blocks by then. Total burn time 15:00 mins and 1/4 of usable boiler water capacity left.

Interestingly at no time during this run did the safety valve start weeping.

So looks like the meths burner applies the heating more linearly across the boiler thus taking longer to reach running temperature. And this burner burns as designed with the meths safely running out before the water (just as well as the sight glass plastic has started to craze already and that was only on solid fuel - Mamod say these melt between 150 & 170°C).

Chris Cairns.
I do find it a bit odd that the loco refused to run at the end while the burner was still burning. You should expect that the flame of an alcohol burner is fairly constant.

A four wick burner should work great since the SV wasn't blowing off with tree wicks. What does worry me a bit is the steam line. It gets heated before steam production is able to cool it, so if too much heat is applied the soldering might fail.
Paul

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Post by Chris Cairns » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:02 pm

Jim,

Thanks for posting your photo. Your driver (a Rob Bennett Busy Bodies?) has wider boots than my Fireman and his feet are closer together. As those neodymium magnets are cheap enough I'm going to order some to try them out.

Your in cab regulator obviously has a coarse enough thread to allow sufficient control using Radio Control - is that a Dream Steam regulator? For your reverser linkage you could use Qwiklinks on the control linkages which are easily removable. As you are using 27MHz it is best to not have metal Qwiklinks on metal control horns to reduce the interference they can generate.

Paul,

Locos have to overcome several friction points when running on track, thus they run a lot freer when placed on top of blocks. This loco is still running in the cylinders but my method of securing the axle bearings into the chassis frames with Araldite Rapid steel has proved very successful so far with very free running wheels which do not wobble.

The meths burner has a tank from which the burner tube exits out the side near the bottom. Thus they are linear burning until the level gets low, then the furthest away wick starts to go out, and so on till no meths remains. The ideal design would be a header tank "chicken feeding" into a burner tube below but you do not see many of that design used on a Mamod SL/MSS loco, although they do exist.

The reason that the safety valve was not lifting was because I did not let the pressure build up more and just got it running when it had sufficient pressure with the burner keeping up with the demanded volume of steam output. These 3 wick burners can provide 40PSI if you wait for it to build, and would probably be topped up again once pressure had been raised (but that is out-with the parameters for my test comparision). I also suspect that this MSS safety valve is set for a slighter higher pressure than the original design of 0.7 Bar but have no way of testing it.

I have re-soldered the boiler bottom fitting with plumbers solder which has a higher melting point that the Mamod/MSS solder paste and works OK on my other meths burner boilers. It is a ceramic gas burner that I would be concerned about with these soft soldered brass boilers which is why I do not fire them using that method.

Chris Cairns.

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Post by The Denying Dutchman » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:22 pm

A chicken feeder burner is interesting, but I think a burner with a main tube and a second tube feeding the front wick directly, will work just as well. Without the possibility to control the flame to a certain degree of course.
Paul

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