Regner Willi Gas Burner - any advice appreciated

Discussion of Live Steam locomotives should be located here
User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Regner Willi Gas Burner - any advice appreciated

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:04 pm

My latest loco is a Regner Willi and I'm having real problems getting the burner to light correctly.

You light it like all Regners - hold a lighted match over the chimney, crack the gas valve and the flame should pop back and away you go. However, with my Willi it pops, goes out and blows the match out as well.

Unlike my other two Regners the Willi has an air control ring that lets you part cover the two air holes immediately in front of the gas jet. If you slide it back so all the air holes are fully uncovered the flame doesn't pop back and instead burns in the "smoke box" (or whatever you call the top of a vertical boiler). Moving the air control ring to cover more of the air holes increases the violence of the pop but for 99% of the time it doesn't pop back correctly, simply blows itself and the match out.

Neither the English or the German instruction make any mention of the air control ring.

Now sometimes, with the air control valve covering about 50% of the air holes the flame will pop back correctly, but by that time I've usually wasted about 30 matches and have burnt fingers.

As the burner is identical to the one in my Konrad I swapped them over and the problem remained, so its not a burner issue.

Anybody got any suggestions?

Mike

User avatar
Gremlin
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:46 pm
Location: Kent

Post by Gremlin » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:09 pm

Mine can be a problem too, I find it lights best if I don't fill the gas tank too much. Once warmed and stable I can fill the tank and relight.

User avatar
jabsteam
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:45 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, USA

Post by jabsteam » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:32 pm

My Chaloner acts the same way. It won't easily pop back onto the burner.
I've been told it's because the just filled tank is sending liquid Butane instead of gas into the burner "flooding" it. Once the liquid is burned off with repeated re-lightings it will then pop back onto the burner as it should. Oh, and I use a Butane BBQ lighter stick instead of matches.
There has got to be an easier way... any advise?
Jim Bruneau
Accu. Plantation 0-4-2ST
Accu. WD Baldwin 4-6-0T
RH Custom American 2-6-2ST
Regner Chaloner
DJB Robert 0-4-0T- coal

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:58 am

That's a bit depressing as it suggests a design issue with the vertical boiler locos. Presumably my Konrad lights OK because it has a horizontal boiler and any surplus gas can escape through the holes in the bottom of the smoke box. With a vertical boiler the gas just sits there.

I was thinking of saving up to get one of the new Otto tram engines but now may have to reconsider.

Mike

User avatar
jabsteam
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:45 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, USA

Post by jabsteam » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:07 pm

I've read somewhere of a fix for this problem of drilling several air holes at the bottom of the boiler where the fire tube is located. I don't know if the holes were drilled up thru the bottom, or thru the side circumference.
Makes sense, as engines with Horizontal boilers have open bottom smokeboxes, which vents more than just the chimney alone.

Anybody heard of, or tried this on their Vertical boilered engines?
Jim Bruneau
Accu. Plantation 0-4-2ST
Accu. WD Baldwin 4-6-0T
RH Custom American 2-6-2ST
Regner Chaloner
DJB Robert 0-4-0T- coal

LnBmad
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 884
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 10:17 pm
Location: North Devon

Post by LnBmad » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:19 pm

Don't go drilling holes! Boilers are pressure vessels and holes DO NOT retain pressure!

The issue your having is due to gas jet positioning. It probably needs a little more space to allow air flow around it.

As for when lighting to loco, once filled with gas open up the valve and let some pass through (will look a little cloudy) this removes the gas vapour that won't light where you want it to. Once the gas is no longer visible, shut it off and wait a min or 2 for it all to disperse. Now try listing the loco and it should light a lot easier.
If it can be made full scale it can be made 16mm

My line: http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about7200.html

User avatar
jabsteam
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:45 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, USA

Post by jabsteam » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:48 pm

Thanks for the info LnBmad. I have no intention of drilling holes into the pressure vessel. The holes would go into the non-pressurized firebox.
I would assume to vent the unwanted liquid Butane spewing from the newly filled tank.

The engine has an adjustable collar to cover the air holes in the burner assembly. Closing up the air holes makes the problem worse, so the engine has the burner air holes wide open right now.

The gas jet assembly can be adjusted in or out of the holder about 5-6 mm, but no change noted when moving it.

It seems like there is not enough air getting to the burner for an easy light off.
Jim Bruneau
Accu. Plantation 0-4-2ST
Accu. WD Baldwin 4-6-0T
RH Custom American 2-6-2ST
Regner Chaloner
DJB Robert 0-4-0T- coal

LnBmad
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 884
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 10:17 pm
Location: North Devon

Post by LnBmad » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:55 pm

Can you get any photos as it may help with what to suggest....
If it can be made full scale it can be made 16mm

My line: http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about7200.html

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:10 pm

Tomorrow I'll take some close up photos of the Willi's burner assembly (need to unearth my good camera). If anybody beats me to it that's even better.

Mike

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:41 pm

OK, here's some photos

Image

Image
Image

If I move the adjustable air control collar to open the air hole completely the gas ignites in the "smoke box" (the top of the vertical boiler).
Progressively moving the collar to cut off the air usually results in louder and louder pops which succeed in blowing both its own flame and the match/lighter/baby blowlamp out as well.
With the collar in the half way position as in the photos very occasionally it pops back properly.

Clearly its something to do with the air and gas not mixing properly but, as I mentioned before, removing the burner assembly as is and putting it in my Konrad and it pops back first time every time.

Drilling holes to let the surplus gas out isn't an option.The burner is surrounded by a pressurised water jacket.

Mike

PS Bloomin' photos aren't displaying properly! I can see the image tags.

User avatar
St.Michael
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 9:13 pm
Location: Norway

Post by St.Michael » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:45 pm

Have you tried just to cover the airhole sligtly with a fingertip a short moment, when lightning the loco?  
I drive two Regners, and my Chaloner was always harder to ignite than my Vincent. But by covering the airhole ( I do the same on both of them) they have become easy to fire up. Of corse the liquid gass has to be vented away first. It may be a good advice not to fill the gasstank too much at the start but afterfill it when the loco has reached its workingpreasure. I have done that lately and I do believe it works!
Very very sad to hear that Manfred Regner has passed away
Regards to all
Michael
Ps. I have never touched the air controll ring. I´ve always thought it was factory adjusted to the right place..

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:20 pm

Hi St.Michael. That's a good idea about restricting the air hole with your finger, I'll give it a try.

I've never had any problem with either of my horizontal boilered Regners lighting, they just pop back every time.

Do all vertical boilered Regners have an air control ring? Looking through the instruction manuals I have, there isn't a photo or a mention of it in the English one. The German one (which covers all of the Easy Line single cylinder locos) has a small photo of a Chaloner in which you can just make out a control ring, but again no mention of it in the text that I can find (my German is pretty rusty). However it does suggest what to do if the flame is burning in the smoke box, namely turn the gas down slightly to make the flame pop back onto the burner tube. I must say I haven't managed to do that successfully.

Yes its very sad that Manfred Regner has passed away, blood poisoning apparently.



Mike

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:16 pm

The plot thickens. Having swapped a Ragleth for a Regner Lumber Jack kit (the Ragleth wasn't in keeping with my railway's theme), I spent the last day or so building it, and then today gave it its first test run. The Lumber Jack came with a air control ring on the gas burner (although I haven't seen these on other Lumber Jacks), so I set it to cover about half the air inlet holes.

I haven't got a replacement Ronson style gas filler valve yet so I started off testing using the supplied Regner gas valve and gas can adaptor. When lighting the flame popped back every time, so I was pretty pleased as I had read the Lumber Jack can be a bit difficult to light.

However this evening I borrowed the Ronson type gas adaptor from the Willi and tried that in the Lumber Jack. Immediately I had problems getting the flame to pop back. Put the original Regner gas filler valve back and it lights just fine every time again.

Anybody got any possible explanations? The air control ring wasn't adjusted at all and the gas tank was only filled about half way in both cases. The only difference being the Regner gas valve is much larger and protrudes into the gas tank.

Tomorrow I'm going to put the original Regner filler valve back in the Willi's gas tank to see if that becomes any easier to light. Watch this space.

Mike

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:30 pm

OK so I can confirm:

The Willi pops back more reliably when a Regner gas valve is fitted to the tank. Not 100% but much better than using a Ronson valve.

I've tried different makes of gas, so don't think that's the reason.

Only thing I can think of is the Ronson valve taking up so much less space in the tank there's a far greater chance of liquid gas getting into the gas line.

However, I don't want to use the Regner gas valve. Apart from not being self venting the nozzle is so much larger the tank fills really quickly so you get loads of condensation and ice on the outside.

So its back to where I was before and very carefully fine tuning the air control ring to see if that helps.

Mike

User avatar
Chris Cairns
Driver
Driver
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post by Chris Cairns » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:28 pm

Having recently obtained a 2nd hand Lumber Jack, my first Regner locomotive, I have also been having difficulties lighting the burner.

It seems that Regner burners are more prone to having liquid gas coming from the gas tank, and looking at my other gas tanks (Cheddar Models, PPS Steam, Bix & Mamod) the only thing that is constantly different is Regner use a smaller diameter gas pipe (2mm whereas all my British gas tanks use 1/8" pipe). It also appears from surfing on-line that using a butane/propane mix in Germany is more common than butane only gas (Regner only sell the mixed gas).

My Lumber Jack does not allow for any adjustment of the air/gas ratio and the tip of blocking off one air hole whilst lighting the burner got me thinking. The gas jet was not sealed with anything into the jet holder (apparently these should be sealed with PTFE tape at the factory), the jet holder is a loose fit into the burner, and the burner is a loose fit into the boiler flue tube.

So I sealed the jet into the holder with PTFE tape, wrapped some PTFE tape around the jet holder then secured it into the burner, and similarly wrapped some PTFE tape around the burner collar where it is secured in the boiler flue tube.

Image

This has now stopped the liquid gas fire I was getting at the front of the boiler flue/smokebox, although the burner does not always stay lit when it pops back (can take a couple of go's). Seems to light up easier with less gas in the tank (I have a ronson filler valve fitted and I now no longer completely fill the gas tank as it will outlast the boiler water capacity).

Here is the damage caused to a Lumber Jack in Germany which was having problems with that gas fire at the front of the boiler flue/smokebox.

Image

Image

The fire has caused the upper spring to lose it's tempering and the cylinders were no longer properly retained. This owner went through 3 springs before he sent it back to Regner for repair. They fitted a new gas jet which is sealed into the holder with PTFE tape - although that action does not appear anywhere in the instructions.

Chris Cairns.

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:20 pm

I'll try that with the Willi and maybe the Lumberjack as well as neither had any sign of PTFE tape.

Would still recommend an air control ring as well though, if your loco hasn't got one.


Mike

User avatar
St.Michael
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 9:13 pm
Location: Norway

Post by St.Michael » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:38 pm

I´d like to share my latest disaster with you :oops:  :oops:  
I few days ago I decided to fire up and have a go with my Vincent   ( the loco on my tag)  The current gas bottle I´m using is either very leaky or it flushes gas with very high preassure, so I have problems with getting the gas in a controlled way in to the gastank. And what happens is that I get a lot of gas flooding outside the fillervalve and that results in icing around the gastank. I´ve been through this before, but this time I lost my temper and gave me hell on that the gas should enter the tank...
So I flooded the poor engine with gas outside the tank and it froze so bad so the water inside the sightglass also froze and cracked the sightglass.  
Do you have any comments on this?? I just blame myself for my stupidity. And the final question: Where do I get a new sightglass? I don´t know if I can contact Regner, are they temporarely closed? What about the sightglasses at Chuffed 2 bits? Will one of those fit in?
Regards to you all
Michael (no saint)
Last edited by St.Michael on Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:51 pm

I have just the same problem when I use the Regner supplied gas can adaptor with their gas filler valve. The nozzle is so large compared with the Ronson adaptor that gas squirts every which way and covers everything in ice.

Which is why I'd rather use the Ronson type filler even if it makes the loco a lot more difficult to light properly.

Sympathies re the water level glass. You can get them easily enough though - I bought some on ebay when I cracked mine. You just need to measure the outside diameter of the tube. The tubes can be cut to length by scoring with a diamond file and then snapping on the score.

As a temporary fix replace the glass tube with a bit of brass rod of the same diameter, plus the old O rings.

Chuffed2Bits is closed until August 22nd I believe.

Mike

User avatar
Chris Cairns
Driver
Driver
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post by Chris Cairns » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:43 pm

My Lumber Jack did not come with a Regner gas fill adaptor but I managed to get one of the nozzles that comes with the Ronson lighter refill can to fit without too much leaking. I now have a ronson filler valve fitted.

Just looked at the Regner filler valve and it was very stiff to operate. As recommended in the instructions I dismantled the filler valve and lubricated the 'O' rings with vaseline, and it now operates smoothly.

Over on the Airsoft community they have taken to fitting an 'O' ring over the filler valve tube to stop the leaking gas and magazines freezing up. I wonder if that would be an advantage to our scenario - http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/a ... ulletID=50

Looking at their catalogue Regner only sell 1 size of sight glass tube so you are looking for a 4mm replacement. After cutting the tube heat up the ends gently in a weak flame to seal the glass/pyrex. On my Lumber Jack the sight glass glands are fitted using rolled PTFE tape - Regner does not seem to like using 'O' rings much!

Chris Cairns.

User avatar
mikewakefielduk@btinterne
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: Shropshire

Post by mikewakefielduk@btinterne » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:38 pm

I think I really should read the friendly Regner manual more carefully in future. It says quite clearly:
"Remove the fill valve, lubricate sealing rings with Vaseline and reinstall the fill valve. In this process do not screw the sealing screw tight, only screw it in until it reaches the gasket, app. 1 mm clearance."
I had being screwing them up finger tight rather than leaving the 1mm which explains why I was getting a huge back spray of gas and icing everywhere.

Mike

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests