Load Limits

[IrishPeter]

The line in the garden has about the same gradients as the Welsh Highland Railway, and in order to assist prototypical operations I was wondering what the load limits on the WHR are for the following locomotives:

Linda and Blanche
Prince

It seems that the WHHR Pecket is allowed three or four and a van, if her recent test run is anything to go on.

Supplementary question:

What is the maximum load for the Welshpool and Llanfair's 'Earl' and 'Countess.' I usually see photos of them with 2 bogies and 2 Zillerbahn four-wheelers - is that the 'all-up' or what makes sense in everyday operation?

Many thanks,
Peter in AZ

[JMORG]

When Blanche and The ALCO were being used between Caernarfon and Dinas (Waunfawr for the ALCO), they were both on 3 of the WHR Saloons (although the ALCO sometimes had 4). Linda and Blanche run with a maximum of 8 Barn carriages on the Ffestiniog, and do slip at Ddualt on dry rail, so the 3/4 WHR carriages does seem accurate. Prince has run with 2/3 heritage carriages, although Dr Ben Fishers site states that they "kept him within his limits to prevent the wear experienced on Mountaineer and Blanche".
Hope this helps!

[laalratty]

The official load limit for Prince on the WHR is 3 carriages. Linda and Blanche I'm not so sure about, they've taken 7 FfR carriages double heading on a couple of occasions, but got stuck at Nantmor on that load when they tried it in November. I'd have thought with favourable rail conditions you might get 4 FfR coaches out of them. The WHR carriages are heavier of course and usually only seen behind the garratts

[JMORG]

Just to add something!
Blanche has TE of 6920
Merddin Emrys (and The Square) are 9639
Lyd is 9087
K1 is just over 15,000
I can't remember what the Dave has (about 10,000-12,000), but he can easilly pull the maximum number of carriages on the FR (12), and K1 can just about pull 9 (10 in a pinch), so Dave can probablydo about 6? Lyd is at the maximum at 5
So the 3/4 limit for the Ladies is about right!
The NGG16s, if anyone is interested, is atleast 15 (87 had to pull a DOUBLE train due to a failure).

[IrishPeter]

In loose terms the converter is 1700-2000 TE lbs per carriage - round up for dry rail, and down for wet!  What do the new WHR vehicles weight?  IIRC the older bogies are 8 or 9.25 tons a piece empty, so I am assuming that the Barns are about 10 tons, and the WHR 2000 series about 11T a piece.  Anywhere close?

For a (not particularly good) comparison, the IMR - worst gradient 1 in 60 from a rolling start north of Ballasalla - allows about 1000 TE lbs per vehicle. Medium boilered 160psi locomotives manage 6 bogies (84 - 90 tons) with the vacuum bakes coupled up on a wet day; seven, maybe eight, when it is dry.

Peter in AZ

[TonyW]

Your truly in action on Linda back in 2003 when it ran Caernarfon to Waunfawr for a few days with 2 FR and 3 WHR carriages...

[JMORG]

Just to reply to IrishPete, the WHR saloons range from 12-15 tons depending on what carriage it is (Semi-open would obviously be the lightest, with either the Service cars or the Pullmans being the heaviest).
Obviously it also depends on bearings most of the WHR stock are on ex-SAR plain bearing bogies, whereas the FfR are mostly on Roller bearins.
And it depends on the weather! I remember the days when it was just 138 and 143 trundling to Rhyd Duu with just 6/7 carriages and slipping like mad between Caernarfon and Dinas!

[JMORG]

You're a volunteer Tony, you're more likely to know the figures!
Anyways its a nice day today, might run the Garratt!

[Resurgam05]

As far as I am aware these are the current WHR load limits for the following locos.

Linda, Blanche, Lyd and Mountaineer (If it were operational): 4 bogie carriages.

Prince and Taliesin: 3 bogie carriages

Double Engines: 6 bogie carriages

In normal circumstances NG/G16s have a maximum official limit of 12 bogie carriages, although service trains are usually made up of less.

[TonyW]

You're a volunteer Tony, you're more likely to know the figures!

Was... and we were only going as far as Waunfawr back then. The biggest problem was climbing through the cutting at Plas Dinas. Things may have changed since.

Anyways its a nice day today, might run the Garratt!

Good man!

[Andrew]

Prince has run with 2/3 heritage carriages, although Dr Ben Fishers site states that they "kept him within his limits to prevent the wear experienced on Mountaineer and Blanche".
Hope this helps!

The longest train I've seen behind an England loco in photos of the pre-preservation WHR (when they weren't so worried about wear - or, quite possibly, timekeeping!) is three bogie coaches - two bowsiders and a brake - plus a 4 wheeler. Actually there was one that looked longer (the rear was obscured by buildings as it trundled through Porthmadog, but no brake was yet in sight) in an old postcard on the WHR Forum - expert opinion there was that it had only come from "New" station though and so hadn't been doing any hill climbing...  

My new line, currently under construction and based on the WHR, features 1 in 40 gradients but it looks like train length will be detrermined by the length of the run-round loops in my little back garden, with a three coach maximum.

Cheers,

Andrew.

[JMORG]

As far as I know (from what I've heard from supporters and volunteers), ALL new stock are being made from square steel girder frames built to last for awhile, clad in wooden panneling to be removed as needed.

[IrishPeter]

From what I have seen of recent WHR/FfR stock the expression 'built like a shipyard khazi' springs to mind. However, given that the lead vehicle of a WHR could well be in the middle between an NGG16 and roughly 160 tons of train that is for the best. That double load must have been well north of 200 tons, which on 1:40 pencils out to some pretty serious horse power.

I think I am heading towards 3 and a van being the limit for a Ruby on the CLR and five and a van for a Millie due to the need to restart on a 1 in 40 after resetting the points at Ridley.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[DolwyddelanLightRail]

A sight we need back again, instead of the 6 monthly special occasion where Linda and Blanche are brought out

Regarding the most difficult part to drive on the WHR, not that I know from experience, however many drivers have told me that this is on the down approach to Beddgelert (i.e. Port -> Caernarfon) at Cemetery Crossing, which is 5mph, and then you have to attempt to accelerate/keep moving around the return curve directly underneath a load of overhanging trees, and then into the tunnel (Goat Tunnel?) before the station whilst still on the 1:40 uphill gradient. In autumn this can be incredibly difficult due to the fact that the rails can be wet, with the added bonus of leaves on the rails on the return curve.

The load limits Resurgam has stated are spot on, however they are been set to those limits mainly to avoid any excessive wear on the locos. I have fired Merddyn Emrys up to Rhyddily Diddly (with 6 carrs) and it was obvious that it could take more than rated, however, the doubles, Englands etc weren't exactly designed to be thrashed up however many miles of near constant 1:40. Also the main reason why the NG16's don't take 12 up many times is due to the fact that there isn't enough coaching stock...

[IrishPeter]

So what about the Welshpool & Llanfair loading of 2 bogies +2 Zillerbahns? Is that a maximum load or is it a pragmatic decision based on loop lengths, traffic patterns, etc., or is Golfa Bank with its reverse curve on a 1 in 29 through the woods that limiting? I have a dim recollection that the W&LLR's load limit used to be 10 empties and 7 loaded. Ten empties would somewhere between 25 and 30 tons, so it sounds as though loop length may have been the issue there, and 7 fulls - c.55-60 tons - assuming a tare of 2-5-0 for the open wagons and a 6 ton capacity - sounds like that's the most they could get up Golfa in one go.

Anywhere close?

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[hussra]

Dunno about the W&L, the only one I have the data readily to hand for is the Talyllyn. (I have the master files for the General Appendix here...) There, the permitted loadings are expressed in bogie carriage equivalents, with each four wheeler counted as half. The normal maxima are:

Loco 1: 5 1/2 bogies
2: 6 bogies
3: 5 bogies
4: 5 1/2 bogies
6: 5 bogies
7: 6 bogies

subject to the agreement of the driver for anything over 5.

The limiting factor in a great many circumstances is lengths of loops, especially Wharf (only 148') and Quarry Siding (200', which is ten less than Pendre, Abergynolwyn and Nant Gwernol). The GA quotes lengths of locos, carriages and wagons in feet and inches...

[IrishPeter]

Hussra - It looks like the W&LLR's loadings were determined by Golfa. In goods only days it was 7 coal; 11 general merchandize, and 14 empties plus a brake van. In short around 45-50 tons was about the maximum load behind Earl and Countess on 1 in 29. The present 2+2 jives with that as the W&LLR's replica saloons are about the same size as the IMR saloons which weigh 11 tons empty and 14 fully loaded. I imagine the MAVs and the Sierra Leones are the same weight if not a little heavier. The Zillers are 6 tonnes light according to their efficiently Germanic data plates, which will mean c.8.25 tonnes loaded.

On my Garden line it seems that the deciding factor seems to be what Millie will stop down hill and that seems to be somewhere in the order of 16-24 axles depending on the type of vehicle. The freer running bogie stock overwhelms the 'backpedal brake' with 4 on (sixteen axles) but with the less free running 4-wh stock I have had her up to 22 axles with no problems.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[hussra]

Hmmm, or time for a guard's van with working brakes?

[IrishPeter]

Knowing my luck I would do too good a job and bowstring the train. Also it would be a little funny having R/C brakes, but not an R/C locomotive!

Peter in AZ

[hussra]

True... in other news, my own "Millie" is just about to emerge from the workshops with on-board radio control of regulator and whistle. Took a great deal of shoehorning in! But we'll leave that for another thread.