RH Double Fairlie

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Big Jim
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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by Big Jim » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:43 am

tom_tom_go wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:58 pm You can buy a 5" gauge loco for that price.
Ahem, I have four large scale engines that cost me less than that in total. (Cough, cough don't tell the wife.)
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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by Hydrostatic Dazza » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:54 pm

The cost is what it is, it what it has to be. Roundhouse is not a charity, they pay their workers, holidays, sick leave, etc. They have to send their kids to school. They have to devote time and a profit % to new product development or perish, they store stock, they give customer service, it is a profession, not a hobby. They still exist unlike many other pretenders that came and are gone. If one has been in business then there is an appreciation of the costs that keep rolling in and the list is getting longer. Just think of the computer costs and back up of their data, adverts, attending shows, the workshop and depreciation of tools and machines.
Please do not compare what a professional concerns does to some one who made a loco over 2-maybe 10 years who sells it for a price that works out as $1.65 per hour labour after costs are deducted.
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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by Big Jim » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:13 pm

Hydrostatic Dazza wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:54 pm The cost is what it is, it what it has to be. Roundhouse is not a charity, they pay their workers, holidays, sick leave, etc. They have to send their kids to school. They have to devote time and a profit % to new product development or perish, they store stock, they give customer service, it is a profession, not a hobby. They still exist unlike many other pretenders that came and are gone. If one has been in business then there is an appreciation of the costs that keep rolling in and the list is getting longer. Just think of the computer costs and back up of their data, adverts, attending shows, the workshop and depreciation of tools and machines.
Please do not compare what a professional concerns does to some one who made a loco over 2-maybe 10 years who sells it for a price that works out as $1.65 per hour labour after costs are deducted.
I fully agree, I think RH engines are very good value. I think in relative terms 16mm locos are cheaper than they ever have been. I don't think there is any profiteering being done by any of the major manufactures at the moment.

I should also add that all the large scale PMR locos have been purchased in a very, very second hand condition.
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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by FWLR » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:02 am

There are some receptive comments on here about it's price. It's really down to who wants one and if they can afford it. I do think it's a really nice loco, but at the price, it's well out of my league.

Still don't understand why a push you, pull me loco is needed. But it's nice all the same.

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by TonyW » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:37 am

FWLR wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:02 amStill don't understand why a push you, pull me loco is needed. But it's nice all the same.
In full-size form the answer is simple. Instead of using two small locos (needed to cope with the curves) with two crews use two small-but-coupled-back-to-back locos with only one crew. A 50% labour saving right there.

Not every railway who tried them got on with the Double Fairlie concept though. For example, storage for fuel is always at a premium, so restricting their range.

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by FWLR » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:32 pm

Thanks Tony... :thumbright:

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by IanC » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:13 pm

Irrespective of the price, my preference is for tank engines and tender engines. As the owner of a Roundhouse (and Accucraft) loco I think they are excellent value for money and I have nothing but praise for Roundhouse quality and service. For me it comes down to personal preference. As nice as it is it just doesn't feature on my 'wants' list. If I was spending £4100 on steam loco(s) there are other's I'd prefer. For those that want a double Fairlie now's your chance to make a purchase.
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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by Keith S » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:01 pm

Does the model have two separate boilers, or are the halves conjoined in some way? Is it controlled with one regulator, or two?

For that matter, I suppose I have the same questions about the full-sized article!

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by CSL » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:37 pm

TonyW wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:37 am Not every railway who tried them got on with the Double Fairlie concept though. For example, storage for fuel is always at a premium, so restricting their range.
An issue with the Double Fairlie concept, compared to other articulated steam loco designs, is that the more powerful you make it, the more fuel and water you want on board... but the less space there is for them.

Another potential inherent drawback is that water and fuel consumption reduces adhesion (as with Garratts, although the SAR GMAM partially avoided this by having its principal water store in a separate tender-wagon).

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by TonyW » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:04 pm

CSL wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:37 pmAnother potential inherent drawback is that water and fuel consumption reduces adhesion ...
Ah yes, the "fun" of the second trip on an NGG16 on a wet day from Caernarfon up the hill to Dinas on the Welsh Highland is something I won't forget. The front water tank would be filled to the brim, but the oil tank in the back bunker would by this time be half empty (and not re-filled until the end of the day). So, the front end would plod away quite happily but the back end would be slipping hopelessly due to lack of adhesive weight. Using the sanders didn't make much difference as they are on the front engine, and once its ten wheels had passed over the sand there wasn't much left on the railhead.

And then the steel oil tanks were replaced by much smaller and lighter plastic tanks, so it happened on the first trip as well...

Booked for, I think, 15 minutes, my record was 54 minutes to do the journey. Happy days!

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by JMORG » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:13 pm

TonyW wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:04 pm
CSL wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:37 pmAnother potential inherent drawback is that water and fuel consumption reduces adhesion ...
Ah yes, the "fun" of the second trip on an NGG16 on a wet day from Caernarfon up the hill to Dinas on the Welsh Highland is something I won't forget. The front water tank would be filled to the brim, but the oil tank in the back bunker would by this time be half empty (and not re-filled until the end of the day). So, the front end would plod away quite happily but the back end would be slipping hopelessly due to lack of adhesive weight. Using the sanders didn't make much difference as they are on the front engine, and once its ten wheels had passed over the sand there wasn't much left on the railhead.

And then the steel oil tanks were replaced by much smaller and lighter plastic tanks, so it happened on the first trip as well...

Booked for, I think, 15 minutes, my record was 54 minutes to do the journey. Happy days!

If I recall, didn't the NGG16'S also have gravity sanders back then?

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by GTB » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:13 am

Keith S wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:01 pm Does the model have two separate boilers, or are the halves conjoined in some way? Is it controlled with one regulator, or two?

For that matter, I suppose I have the same questions about the full-sized article!
Later full size ones had two inner fireboxes in a single boiler shell, but the first ones had a single central firebox with fire tubes at each end and were useless at boiling water, as the draft of one engine unit affected the other one. They had separate regulators inside the boiler for each end, but they were linked mechanically. Same for the reverser.

The only double fairlies bought by Aust. railways were useless at pulling trains, or going around sharp curves. Two were packed up and sent back whence they came without entering traffic and another ended up powering a sawmill....

The ones in Canada seem to have done better, but I doubt any Canadian engineer really loved them.

Not sure how Roundhouse have done it, but the published specs and photos suggest they have two boilers with two burners, with a single regulator on a manifold linking the boilers. It is r/c only, so they are presumably using two servos on the valve gear, like the Darj Garratt. Looks like getting at the burners to clear a blocked jet might be interesting.......

All academic for me, the only bendy loco left on my bucket list is the FCV Climax.

Graeme

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by TonyW » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:33 am

JMORG wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:13 pmIf I recall, didn't the NGG16'S also have gravity sanders back then?
They did ... mechanical linkage for the back end, and steam-operated mechanism for the front.
GTB wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:13 amThey had separate regulators inside the boiler for each end, but they were linked mechanically.
The FR ones have two independent regulators. It is much easier, and I always felt more "in control", when shunting using one end only.

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by FWLR » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:08 am

So are you going to get one Tony... :thumbright:

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by TonyW » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:27 am

FWLR wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:08 amSo are you going to get one Tony... :thumbright:
No, but I'm sure one will turn up here in due course.

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Re: RH Double Fairlie

Post by Andrew » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:08 pm

TonyW wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:27 am
FWLR wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:08 amSo are you going to get one Tony... :thumbright:
No, but I'm sure one will turn up here in due course.
It'd certainly benefit from some lining...

It would look lovely at the head of my Ffestiniog rake but I don't think it's going to happen any time soon!

All the best,

Andrew.

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