bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by philipy » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:41 am

dewintondave wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:09 am


Very interesting. I've been using the soldering iron to distribute the solder
Yes, it is interesting, thanks. Like Dave I also used my big soldering iron. Actually I stopped using Bakers Fluid years ago because it is so corrosive, especially when you knock the can over! I prefer Fluxite which is much more controllable and less likely to cause a disaster.

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by Keith S » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:57 am

bambuko wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:45 pm
As far as I know majority prototype narrow gauge rails are flat bottom?
So I'd rather have slightly large code 250 rail with flat bottom than correct size but wrong shape code 200 bullhead.
The argument often voiced in favour of bullhead is that it is easier to bend (flat bottom requiring rail bender),
but afaic this is "lazy" logic - rail bender is such an "easy to make" contraption that there is no reason to be afraid of flat bottom rail,
unless one wants some crazy tight bends... :D

In favour of the "Sunset Valley" rail from America, I have quite a bit of this rail, which is flat-bottomed, one comment I will make is that the aluminium rail is so incredibly inexpensive that it might well make up for the shipping cost.

I find that the distance between the sleepers seems to have more effect on the sense of scale than either the size of the rail or even the gauge.

Aluminium rail is weird though. Steam oil and oxidation make it very black on top and it is quite soft. unlike brass rail it never changes colour with age and so will always be a dull silver-y colour. A wipe with thinners and a rag cleans off the black slippery stuff, otherwise locomotives will slip.

But did I mention the incredible inexpensive-ness?

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by FWLR » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:42 am

Interesting video and very helpful. Thanks... :thumbright: :thumbright:
Rod

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by GTB » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:49 am

bambuko wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:23 pm
I presume, by "strange on a cane tram" you mean that it would be too light?

Once again thank you for all this and as you say I will have to try both code 250 and Tenmille (I quite like making my own track).
For education purposes on the subject of Qld. cane trams you can't go past Lynn Zelmer's Cane-Sig website. He's a refugee from Canada, but I've no idea how he survives in the Qld climate.....

http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig/

No, even code 200 rail would be a bit heavy for dead scale cane tram rail from the steam era. My objection to Peco SM32 track appearance wise is the use of rail chairs, which weren't used on Aust. ng track. Aust timber and cane tram track had the rail spiked directly to the sleepers. The rail wasn't canted, nor did they use sleeper plates. Sleepers weren't necessarily completely squared off either. The nearest thing in the UK to Qld. cane tram track would have been lines built with recycled WDLR material. eg. the Ashover Light Railway.

If you like making your own track, then all you need is a source of suitable rail.

Llagas Creek Railways in the US have code 215 and code 250 flat bottom rail. Sunset Valley Railroad have code 250 rail only, but also make 32mm track.

https://llagascreekrailways.com https://www.sunsetvalleyrailroad.com

I'm using Accucraft code 250 rail which is available in the US and Aust., but I don't know if Accucraft UK stock it. The rail profile is the same as Sunset Valley rail and they are interchangeable.

I've just been through all this while planning my new track............. :roll:

Have fun,
Graeme

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by tom_tom_go » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:55 am

Just to make choosing even harder check out Cliff Barker's code 180 rail:

http://www.cliffbarker.me.uk

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by bambuko » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:02 pm

Combined reply to all of you guys (and thank you for your contributions :thumbright: )
dewintondave wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:09 am
...I've been using the soldering iron to distribute the solder...
Yes, I've tried that as well, and apart from the difficulty of heating 1.5mm steel sheet
(particularly with high temp soft solder like Comsol, which melts at around 300degC),
soldering iron will not apply pre-tin in a thin even coat as well as one is able to do it with silicone brush.
At least this is my experience YMMV :)
Of course for brass, relatively thin and using standard tin/lead solder, there is nothing wrong with soldering iron.
philipy wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:41 am
...I stopped using Bakers Fluid years ago because it is so corrosive, especially when you knock the can over!
I prefer Fluxite which is much more controllable and less likely to cause a disaster...
I use dishwasher to clean and neutralise things after solderng - never had any problems with rust.
Used Fluxite and similar before and they are perfectly adequate for normal tin/lead and lead free, not sure about high temperatures
(I tended to end up with black mess 8) ).
Bakers Fluid is officially recomended (by Comsol people) flux for use with their solder.
Keith S wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:57 am
... aluminium rail is so incredibly inexpensive that it might well make up for the shipping cost.
...Aluminium rail is weird though. Steam oil and oxidation make it very black on top and it is quite soft...
Nothing is "inexpensive" if you are in UK :mrgreen:
Sterling exchange rate has gone down so much of the last couple of years...
So I will probably stick to the choices available locally :scratch:
GTB wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:49 am
I'm using Accucraft code 250 rail which is available in the US and Aust., but I don't know if Accucraft UK stock it.
The rail profile is the same as Sunset Valley rail and they are interchangeable.
I've just been through all this while planning my new track............. :roll:
Thank you for the links to Sunset Valley and Llagas Creek Railways- most useful info.
Don't think they do Accucraft code 250 rail here, but I could be wrong?
tom_tom_go wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:55 am
Just to make choosing even harder check out Cliff Barker's code 180 rail...
Yes, but this one is only bullhead and if you want to use his track, it is canted 1:10 instead of the correct 1:20

Image

That's quite an error and it is noticable (unless he has replaced the tooling? but I doubt...)

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by dewintondave » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:30 pm

bambuko wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:02 pm
dewintondave wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:09 am
...I've been using the soldering iron to distribute the solder...
Yes, I've tried that as well, and apart from the difficulty of heating 1.5mm steel sheet
(particularly with high temp soft solder like Comsol, which melts at around 300degC),
soldering iron will not apply pre-tin in a thin even coat as well as one is able to do it with silicone brush.
At least this is my experience YMMV :)
Of course for brass, relatively thin and using standard tin/lead solder, there is nothing wrong with soldering iron.
I've preheated large items with the torch then used the large soldering iron (with chisel tip), working away to get good smooth coverage of solder
Best wishes,
Dave

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by GTB » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:43 am

dewintondave wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:30 pm
I've preheated large items with the torch then used the large soldering iron (with chisel tip), working away to get good smooth coverage of solder
I use the same technique for tinning large chunks of brass such as the cylinder blocks on the Baldwins, using a small pencil torch to keep the metal hot and the soldering iron to tin the metal.

My 100w soldering station fitted with a 3mm chisel tip works fine for tinning sheet brass and steel sheet up to 1mm. Never had the need to tin thicker steel sheet, as I prefer to fabricate frames with mechanical fasteners.

I refuse to use chloride based fluxes like Bakers and all my soft soldering is done with phosphoric acid as a flux. It works well for tin/lead solder, low melt solder and even lead free solder (which I avoid if possible) and I get good results on steel, brass, copper and whitemetal. Cleanup is a simple water rinse. I don't use much and usually apply it to a joint with a toothpick. The last 50ml bottle lasted me about 10 years, even including knocking it over twice...... :roll:

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by bambuko » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:11 pm

It's been quite some time since the last update :oops:
but now that summer is gone and I am back in the workshop (at least occasionally), here is the latest:

Image

I have decided not to spring the axleboxes, but left original hornblocks and hornstays.
So it is bit more complicated than necessary, but it's good practice for the next loco which will definitely be sprung :thumbright:
Also, the beauty of this arrangement is that if things do not work out (for example, I am not sure about these bearings), it is an easy thing to produce another design of axlebox, without any mods to the frame.

I have chosen FR168-ZZ bearings, two for each axlebox:

Image

Next step I am pondering, are cranks.
I want them to be removable if necessary, rather than permanently Loctited as per Brian Wilson's book.
I am thinking square ends to axles and cranks with square holes.
The only question (in my head) is securing of cranks to axles - either csk screw into axle end as per Roundhouse practice? or a grub screw to the side of axle square.
Prefer the latter, but not sure if it will be secure enough?

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by DonW » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:37 pm

For a grub screw to work you could file a flat on the axle or better make a small dimple. If you are going to the trouble of milling square ends to the axles a small screw into the axles to secure the crank does seem to be a natural option.

For tinning the ideal thing is a plumbers moleskin. I wish I had kept mine using a torch you heat the item add some solder then use the moleskin to spread it thnly over the surface. The moleskin becomes soaked in tallow in use. I have used an ordinary cloth to remove excess solder when tinning but it is not as good at spreading.

Don

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by FWLR » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:33 am

Don's answer is what I would do if you need to take them off easily. The more permeant way would be Roundhouse. Go with what you feel is better for you :thumbright:
Rod

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by GTB » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:08 am

bambuko wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:11 pm
I have decided not to spring the axleboxes, but left original hornblocks and hornstays.
I think we've had this conversation before. I'm not a fan of springing in garden scale, but I like to make my loco wheelsets removable for later maintenance.

Not sure about ball bearings in model steam locos. They won't wear as fast as bronze bushes and don't need regular lubrication, but miniature ones may not be able to handle the reciprocating loads on a steam chassis in the long run.
bambuko wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:11 pm

Next step I am pondering, are cranks.
I want them to be removable if necessary, rather than permanently Loctited as per Brian Wilson's book.
I am thinking square ends to axles and cranks with square holes.
The only question (in my head) is securing of cranks to axles - either csk screw into axle end as per Roundhouse practice? or a grub screw.
My Fowler has the outside cranks fixed with Loctite. The wheelsets are easily removable from the chassis and I recently removed them to fit slightly larger driving wheels to the loco. I had no problem removing one crank from each axle with a punch, changing the drivers and refitting the crank with Loctite. The quartering jig was the one I used when I built the loco, so no adjustments to the con rods were needed when the chassis was reassembled with the new wheelsets.

It isn't difficult to dismantle a joint made with Loctite, as it's designed to make a strong joint, not an unbreakable one. The shear strength of the cured polymer is only about 10% that of the metals being joined.

Milling axle ends square is the easy bit with using the Roundhouse quartering arrangement, accurately broaching a square hole in the crank that is in line with the crankpin is the real trick. I have a couple of locos built with R/H parts and ince I dislike the slotted screws used for fixing cranks, I replace them with hex socket CSK screws. From normal viewing distances the small hex socket resembles the centre holes on real loco axles.

There were some recent posts on the group about making outside cranks and fixing them to the axles with grubscrews in a discussion on building battery powered chassis. You'll find it towards the end of this topic -

https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12467

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by bambuko » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:34 am

DonW wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:37 pm
...If you are going to the trouble of milling square ends to the axles a small screw into the axles to secure the crank does seem to be a natural option...
yes Don, that is my thinking as well :thumbright:
DonW wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:37 pm
...For tinning the ideal thing is a plumbers moleskin...
It's amazing what you can learn by just asking on the forum :)
I googled and found an old book which describes how to prepare plumber's moleskin - fascinating
DonW wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:37 pm
...The moleskin becomes soaked in tallow in use...
That is the only thing that leaves me puzzled, with tallow being oily contaminant?
Normally I degrease everything before soldering.
I guess being used after soldering just to spread the solder it is OK.

Will have to try it, instead of my silicone brush.

Chris
Last edited by bambuko on Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by bambuko » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:59 am

GTB wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:08 am
...but I like to make my loco wheelsets removable for later maintenance...
Totally agree with you on this one.
GTB wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:08 am
...Not sure about ball bearings in model steam locos....but miniature ones may not be able to handle the reciprocating loads on a steam chassis in the long run...
I am also concerned about this, but... I understand that similar bearings are used sucessfuly in G1?
Plus if it all goes to pot, it wouldn't be too complicated to replace them with "conventional" bronze axleboxes.
BTW this is another reason for having everything removable.
GTB wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:08 am
...My Fowler has the outside cranks fixed with Loctite... I had no problem removing one crank from each axle with a punch, changing the drivers and refitting the crank with Loctite...
I guess it depends on the grade of Loctite?
Which one did you use, please?
Loctite 648, which I use to fix wheels to axles has got a shear strength of 3900 PSI.
GTB wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:08 am
...It isn't difficult to dismantle a joint made with Loctite, as it's designed to make a strong joint, not an unbreakable one...
I know it's not impossible, but not something you would want to be doing too often?
Will have to make some tests.
GTB wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:08 am
... accurately broaching a square hole in the crank that is in line with the crankpin is the real trick...
Yes, hence I am approaching it the way dog approaches hedgehog :mrgreen:
Equipment is not a problem (have vertical slotting attachment for my Bridgeport - it's the skills that might be lacking :thumbup:
GTB wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:08 am
... There were some recent posts on the group about making outside cranks and fixing them to the axles with grubscrews ...
thanks for that - useful and interesting.

Chris

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Re: bambuko loco works 0-6-2 (Fowler)

Post by GTB » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:36 pm

bambuko wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:34 am
That is the only thing that leaves me puzzled, with tallow being oily contaminant?
In the past, tallow was used as a soft soldering flux and also as the flux for lead wiping. It's not an oily contaminant in the sense that mineral oil would be.

It works much the same as as rosin flux, being mildly acidic and also wetting the surface to exclude air from the area being tinned/leaded. It would be easier to initially spread on the surface than rosin I imagine, but cleaning up could be more interesting.

It is still used by the more traditional stained glass workers when soldering lead and comes as a waxy stick that looks like a candle without the wick. I assume it is a purer grade of tallow than what is scraped out of a frying pan after cooking...........

Graeme

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