"Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

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LNR
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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by LNR » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:55 pm

Hi Aaron,
Don't know if this is any help or what type of under cab injectors you need, but these are what I made to represent those on the NA's of Puffing Billy. Simple soldering job with various bits of K&S tube and brass turnings with hex's ground on. You could of course use brass nuts.
Puffing Billy Details 081.jpg

New Loco Log 026.jpg
Grant.

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by bambuko » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:09 pm

Hi Aaron, I enjoy following your progress :thumbright:
Good work.
Thank you!

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by Keith S » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:59 pm

Here's a couple of pictures of the under-cab injectors I made. DJB engineering does castings of tank-mounted injectors. I bought a pair at his stall at the Garden Railway show one year.

I don't see the castings (or any other ones) on the DJB website anymore (I just checked) but possibly he still has some kicking around?

After doing some research on how they work and what pipe goes where and does what, I sawed the casting into its constituent parts and re-assembled them in a configuration I thought would work in an under-the-cab mounting with a water pipe from the tender. I don't remember why I chose to make them look like the vertical type; but making it horizontal would require only to bend the pipes a different way.
3AEE65E5-185B-49B8-B0B9-4C8DDD7D574F.jpeg
0158F6D3-3438-4B84-84AB-E737C28F9E53.jpeg


P.S. If I'm honest, I think LNR's homemade injector detail shown above looks really well done, and is probably what I'd do if I was doing mine over.

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by bambuko » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:16 pm

P.S.

I don't know how slaveishly Bundaberg boys were following Fowler original, but on my GA (of Airdmillan - as you know last one produced in UK) it does show boiler feed pump, but no injectors...??

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=worthi ... &ia=images

boiler feed pump.png

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by GTB » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:21 pm

Old Man Aaron wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:15 pm
I'm not sure how it took me seven hours, and thirty of these same 0.8mm drills to do this on "Victoria", but this time took maybe 90 minutes and two drills. :dontknow:
It's called the 'Practice Effect'................

If you bought a better grade of drill and/or made sure the drill was running true, that will have also helped.

The problem with very small drills is that they get blunt easily and as they get blunt, they don't cut as well, so you increase the pressure, they get hot and get even more blunt. At the end of that feedback loop, the drill goes phut and you use bad language.

If the drill isn't running true, it will flex and eventually fatigue and go phut.....

On top of all that, cheap drills usually aren't that sharp to start with and may not be properly heat treated. Many years ago a friend and I were doing modelling demos at an exhibition and he said 'have a look at this'. The drill bit he was using in a pin chuck to drill a piece of brass was so soft that the helix had reversed under load. :shock:

Old Man Aaron wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:34 pm
The handbrake connection on the other side is a bit basic, but will look fine once obscured by the injector pipework. Having a hard time finding anything that remotely resembles under-footplate injectors, so if anyone has any ideas, I'd be keen to hear from you. I don't see making them from scratch ending well.
Roundhouse have a simple brass casting for an injector that is used on their Katie locos and fits under the saddle tank on one side. Roundhouse will usually supply any casting from current models if you ask politely and the casting has a vague resemblance to the injectors used on the Bundy Fowlers when they were first built.

Looking at photos 'Bundy' is now fitted with injectors that look like the ones used on the NA class, as modelled by Grant. There seem to be as many types of injector fitted to the Bundy Fowlers now as there are locos.

I think it would be within your ability to solder up something suitable from bits of rod and tube from the K&S rack and some brass hex nuts. A simple jig made from a block of wood with a few holes and the odd nail in the right place will hold all the bits together while soft soldering.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by GTB » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:16 pm

bambuko wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:16 pm
I don't know how slaveishly Bundaberg boys were following Fowler original, but on my GA (of Airdmillan - as you know last one produced in UK) it does show boiler feed pump, but no injectors...??
Bundy Fowlers were built with two injectors, one on each side underneath the front corners of the cab, mounted for easy access and visible in most photos.

That GA also doesn't show a reverser, but I'd put money on Airdmillan having been built with one. The horizontal section on the drivers side of the plan view is through the axle centres and looking down, which is below the injector and reverser positions, so they aren't drawn.

I can't find a builders photo of the loco showing the r/h side, but it certainly had an injector on the drivers side in a postwar photo and the remains of it are still fitted to what's left of the loco. The injector itself seems to have been inside the cab, as just the water feed from the r/h side tank is visible, as is the overflow pipe sticking out of the cab floor.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by bambuko » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:37 pm

GTB wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:16 pm
...That GA also doesn't show a reverser, but I'd put money on Airdmillan having been built with one...
It doesn't show reverser, because it is on the opposite RH side ;)
Attached part orf GA top view shows LH side, where the boiler pump was.
Here original Fowler UK picture (Ardmillan), showing no injectors, and just a pipe leading to boiler pump...
but I have no photo of RH side :oops:
fowler.jpg

As for Bundaberg injectors, here couple of pics I have found since.
I guess they went their own (better) way...
injector2.jpg

injector1.jpg

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by 11thHour » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:27 am

I wonder how long the lubricator mechanism mounted on top of the cylinder lasted. The actuator looks a little lightweight 🙃
Tim

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by big-ted » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:13 pm

LNR wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:55 pm
Hi Aaron,
Don't know if this is any help or what type of under cab injectors you need, but these are what I made to represent those on the NA's of Puffing Billy. Simple soldering job with various bits of K&S tube and brass turnings with hex's ground on. You could of course use brass nuts.

Puffing Billy Details 081.jpg

New Loco Log 026.jpg

Grant.
Grant,

If you ever get the time, I'd love a "how-to" of how you go about making something like this. I really want to make some similar detailing bits for my locos, but I can't even begin to think how I'd hold things in place while soldering, & not have the whole thing heat up & fall apart as I try & make the last joint.

Same goes for Aaron. I'm simply in awe of you guys that can turn random assortments of small metal pieces into convincing steam components.

Garden Railway Specialists list these guys for anyone looking for a pre-made casting:

https://www.grsuk.com/shop/Pair-of-Inje ... tal-M10540

They're listed in the gauge 3 category, but I would think would work.

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by LNR » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:17 am

Hi Ted,
I'm guessing that any problems one might have making these small items, really comes down to soldering.
To go with the injector above, cutting the various pieces of K&S tube should be fairly straight forward ( I use a jewellers piecing saw, an aquired taste! ) Filing the "U" shapes to fit, always working on a length of tube before cutting off (easier to hold). I have several pieces of small steel hex bar that are tapped which allow me to insert small brass turnings, and by setting the hex on the grinder rest I can grind any size hex I want by eye ( I hate wasting proper nuts when not actually required, just me I guess).
It then comes down to soldering the bits together. I have to say I find soldering easy and very satisfying. The flux I use is pictured below, it's the consistency of water and of course is acid. I imagine it to be nothing special and that equivalent brands are available. Basically where ever it goes solder will follow once the metal is brought up to heat. I use and adjustable electric iron on small items, and electronic resin cored solder(about 1mm diam.).
So then holding it all together! the un-glazed back of an old bathroom tile is my favoured "hearth", I assembled the pieces in place, then touch the areas with the flux on a brush, which of course may move things around, but gets the flux onto mating surfaces. Using the iron pushing down GENTLY on one large piece brings things up to heat, then a gentle touch with the solder runs the solder in. Tweezers can bring errant parts together again, but I feel the secret is holding one larger part to the table with the iron an assembling the others around it. As usual cleanliness is key with soldering though I don't clean anything, just find the flux sufficient, using old or second hand brass would be a different matter.
PA180001.JPG
Good luck, hope this helps.
Grant.

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by philipy » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:53 am

LNR wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:17 am
The flux I use is pictured below, it's the consistency of water and of course is acid. I imagine it to be nothing special and that equivalent brands are available.
Sounds as though it's similar to Bakers Fluid in the UK. I haven't used it for many years but it used to be very good. Actually I'm surprised that 'elf 'n saftee haven't banned it like so many other useful things, but it seems not! :lol:
https://soldersandfluxes.co.uk/p1185/Ba ... Brass.html

What amused me is that your "POISON avoid contact with skin & eyes" product, is sold by Radiant Beautyware. One wonders what it is used for in the beauty world.

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by GTB » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:05 am

philipy wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:53 am
Sounds as though it's similar to Bakers Fluid in the UK. I haven't used it for many years but it used to be very good. Actually I'm surprised that 'elf 'n saftee haven't banned it like so many other useful things, but it seems not!
Radiant soldering fluid was an Aust version of Bakers and basically they are killed spirits, ie. zinc chloride and ammonium chloride dissolved in water. These days it's made by Consolidated Alloys and the bottle is labelled "Bakers" soldering fluid, but it is still referred to as Radiant No. 2 soldering fluid on the safety data sheet. You can buy it in any hardware shop in Aust. and there's also a paste version available, which is petroleum jelly based, rather than water based.
philipy wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:53 am
What amused me is that your "POISON avoid contact with skin & eyes" product, is sold by Radiant Beautyware. One wonders what it is used for in the beauty world.
Your mind works in strange ways......

Radiant Beautyware was an Aust. manufacturer in the plumbing industry, one of it's product lines being stainless steel kitchen sinks. The company disappeared into a conglomerate years ago, but the brand name Radiant is still used on kitchen sinks here in Oz. The old company's only connection to the beauty industry would be the sink in a beauty salon tea room........

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by GAP » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:00 am

Never had any success with "Bakers Fluid" I equate it to plumbers flux which was what I was taught to use in high school metalwork way back in the 1960's
I have used heat activated electronic flux that I brush on to great success, but then I am an ex-electronics technician and have more experience with it.
The heaviest jobs I have used soldering in the model railway environment has been to solder lengths of brass rail together prior to bending flex track to form a curve.
Trade training was always mechanically clean (wire brush, abrasives etc) to make the metal shiny, then chemically clean (Isopropyl or any other alcohol based de-greaser etc or Freon before it was banned) before applying flux to aid solder flow.
My weapon of choice for no electrical soldering work is a gas fired mini blowtorch, anchor the job then it is not touched by anything except the flame till the job is complete, less chance of accidentally moving the pieces.

Aaron; if you want pictures of the injectors fitted to Bundy Fowler No3 at the cane railway just ask and I will take them and post them.
Graeme from the home of the Ringbalin Light Railway
https://ringbalin-light-railway.blogspo ... -page.html

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by big-ted » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:48 pm

LNR wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:17 am
Hi Ted,
I'm guessing that any problems one might have making these small items, really comes down to soldering.
To go with the injector above, cutting the various pieces of K&S tube should be fairly straight forward ( I use a jewellers piecing saw, an aquired taste! ) Filing the "U" shapes to fit, always working on a length of tube before cutting off (easier to hold). I have several pieces of small steel hex bar that are tapped which allow me to insert small brass turnings, and by setting the hex on the grinder rest I can grind any size hex I want by eye ( I hate wasting proper nuts when not actually required, just me I guess).
It then comes down to soldering the bits together. I have to say I find soldering easy and very satisfying. The flux I use is pictured below, it's the consistency of water and of course is acid. I imagine it to be nothing special and that equivalent brands are available. Basically where ever it goes solder will follow once the metal is brought up to heat. I use and adjustable electric iron on small items, and electronic resin cored solder(about 1mm diam.).
So then holding it all together! the un-glazed back of an old bathroom tile is my favoured "hearth", I assembled the pieces in place, then touch the areas with the flux on a brush, which of course may move things around, but gets the flux onto mating surfaces. Using the iron pushing down GENTLY on one large piece brings things up to heat, then a gentle touch with the solder runs the solder in. Tweezers can bring errant parts together again, but I feel the secret is holding one larger part to the table with the iron an assembling the others around it. As usual cleanliness is key with soldering though I don't clean anything, just find the flux sufficient, using old or second hand brass would be a different matter.
PA180001.JPG
Good luck, hope this helps.
Grant.
Thank you, and apologies to Aaron for the thread hijack, and to Keith as I realise his example is equally worthy of my learning from!

So, do I understand correctly that you would essentially assemble all the pieces out, loose and with flux applied on the tile. Then bring the whole thing up to temperature and apply solder to all joints in one go? And forgive me for asking a dumb question, but this is definitely silver soldering? I learned to silver solder last year using Harris Safety Silv 45 (suspect Keith, being also in Canada, is familiar with this?!) to replace a pressure gauge syphon. I'm pretty comfortable soft-soldering (two Roundhouse kits, lots of electronics work) but what you're describing sounds incredibly fiddly. I've just assembled a set of Swift Sixteen cab steps using soft solder and, even then, I struggled with one joint falling apart as I was working on another. I'll have a go at making something similar over the Winter using silver solder and see how I get on I guess!

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Re: "Calloway", a Roundhouse Bundaberg Fowler Rebuild

Post by LNR » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:50 am

Hi Ted,
The injector is SOFT soldered together in one go, using the tiniest amount of solder. (actually too much in this case!). I silver solder most of my boat fittings as strength is generally a requirement.
My apologies to Aaron also.
Grant.

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