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Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:14 pm
by CSL
So, the extension is partly planned and the first challenge will hopefully be clear from these photos...
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The existing line might just be visible to the right of the photos.

The new section needs to cross a path which is in regular use for accessing the main part of the garden, including dragging the lawnmower and full garden waste wheelie bin (and children's ride-on toys) over the crossing point. I reckon the chances of permanent track standing up to that punishment are slim. Also, it's a narrow point so I don't want the railway to make it too much narrower.

As the photos show, I also want two sets of points on the removable section, which also needs to account for diverging tracks (basically two continuous curves with a junction route between them) and a length of perhaps three feet or more - sorry, not currently there to measure!

I've had two thoughts so far:

1. Remove the affected path slabs and replace with concrete with a channel in it. Fix the removable track to a wooden board which fits in the channel. Cut a heavier-duty wooden board to fill the channel when trains are not running.

2. Slightly lower the slabs. Construct a low-profile "bridge" from Dexion* or similar, with slotted angle for the sides and flat metal transverse pieces linking them and supporting the track. Probably insert or fix rubber or wood packing under the "bridge" so the slab supports it.

Are there other options I haven't considered? Any tips on practicalities, including fixing the removable section quickly in the right place to line up the rails correctly each time?

Many thanks for any advice!

*Is Dexion a thing for domestic use these days? - when I checked the website it was all about services for industry.

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:34 pm
by Peter Butler
As I see it you couldn't have points in a worse position than that! The chances of having a successful removable section with all those connections to be made every time are slim to non-existent. I know you are restricted by your situation and need to find a way around it so my first thought would be to leave the track in place and alter the path in such a way the slabs are raised just above the level of the rails and have a removable section of path instead of removing the track.
I think this could satisfy the domestic needs as well as maintaining your sanity.

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:44 pm
by CSL
Peter Butler wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:34 pm As I see it you couldn't have points in a worse position than that!
True, true. But it's no more than exhibition layouts have to put up with. I'm not giving up yet! (Well, I haven't started yet.)

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:49 pm
by CSL
"...a removable section of path instead of removing the track..."

I had discounted that on the basis of the full wheelie bin and lawnmower, but I'm starting to think of it again. Any thoughts of how it could be built?

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:50 pm
by tom_tom_go
Do you need to have points?

What about cutting into the concrete tracks with a diamond crossing?

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:55 pm
by CSL
tom_tom_go wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:50 pm Do you need to have points?

What about cutting into the concrete tracks with a diamond crossing?
The points would be sooooo good for operational variety!

Cutting the slabs is possible but is basically the same as option 1 - or have I missed something?

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:57 pm
by tom_tom_go
Do you have a track plan because all I see is a crossing that doesn't require points?

I wouldn't remove the slab just cut directly into it, you don't need to add rails either.

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:34 pm
by CSL
tom_tom_go wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:57 pm Do you have a track plan because all I see is a crossing that doesn't require points?

I wouldn't remove the slab just cut directly into it, you don't need to add rails either.
I'll sketch a track plan when I have a moment - it's all in my head! But trust me - the points would be good (they weren't in my original idea... and then I saw the light...).

Not sure what you mean by not needing rails...!

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:46 pm
by tom_tom_go
www.anyrail.com for track plan

Cut grooves into the concrete, you don't need rails then.

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:36 pm
by idlemarvel
I'm with the "leave the track in place and raise the path" brigade. You wouldn't need to raise the path that much, only the height of rails plus thickness of slab and a small air gap, which you would remove at running times. You could even use a steel walkplate to make it even lower and easier to remove. You want your pointwork to be as flat and rigid as possible otherwise it will be a source of constant frustration.

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:39 pm
by CSL
tom_tom_go wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:57 pm Do you have a track plan because all I see is a crossing that doesn't require points?
I went for the low-tech approach!
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Hopefully you can see that including the points in that awkward position:
1. Creates a reversing triangle.
2. Enables trains to change direction round the circuit from anti-clockwise to clockwise (although not in the opposite direction) without stopping or reversing.
3. Provides an end-to-end run between the bay platforms of the two stations.
4. Provides an out-and-back run from the bay platform of Station 1.
5. Provides an out-and-back run from the bay platform of Station 2.

That's why I'm quite keen on having them there!

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:47 pm
by CSL
tom_tom_go wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:46 pm Cut grooves into the concrete, you don't need rails then.
Have I got the right mental image from this? I'm picturing a train with its wheels rolling on two edges milled out of the concrete slab - which would (a) crumble over time and (b) damage the wheels (especially the plastic ones!)...

Is this another case of humour not working online?

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:53 pm
by CSL
idlemarvel wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:36 pm I'm with the "leave the track in place and raise the path" brigade. You wouldn't need to raise the path that much, only the height of rails plus thickness of slab and a small air gap, which you would remove at running times. You could even use a steel walkplate to make it even lower and easier to remove.
Comments appreciated. A steel walkplate sounds like a rather unattractive addition to the garden, however, as it would be in a prominent location.

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:15 pm
by Peter Butler
Even if it is still available, Dexion has to be one of the most unattractive construction devices ever conceived. As a temporary support for your track it would be an eyesore and one which you would not be proud to show I'm sure.
The main concern is one of making positive rail joins each time the temporary track is put into position. It is difficult enough to get one straight section aligned, but you would have to make four track joins, ( sixteen rail ends ) each one on a curve, which I think would deter you from spending the time and eventually put you off garden railways for good!

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:34 pm
by CSL
Peter Butler wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:15 pm Even if it is still available, Dexion has to be one of the most unattractive construction devices ever conceived. As a temporary support for your track it would be an eyesore and one which you would not be proud to show I'm sure.
Fair enough, but in my mind's eye the only visible part would be the sides of the removable structure - and they could be diguised.
Peter Butler wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:15 pm The main concern is one of making positive rail joins each time the temporary track is put into position. It is difficult enough to get one straight section aligned, but you would have to make four track joins, (sixteen rail ends ) each one on a curve, which I think would deter you from spending the time and eventually put you off garden railways for good!
Very much agree with the point about ease of installation at the start of a session. Possibly I should be looking at my own habits (e.g. I usually don't bother to put the station building, etc. out) and concluding that the extension is all a bad idea...
But... why exactly is a completely normal feature of exhibition layouts - many of which have considerably more than sixteen rail ends and are packed up, transported and reassembled more frequently than I operate my garden railway, if I'm honest, and which involve electrical connections to boot - such a terrible idea in this case? There's probably a good reason, but it's getting late!

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:10 pm
by Peter Butler
Speaking as one who has done more than my share of model railway exhibitions and displays, I can easily answer you question.... because they are made of compatible (usually identical) materials and set up in controlled and stable environmental conditions.
You are asking for a variety of materials to react in the same way as each other, in an environment which is outside your control and will react differently to temperature and humidity.
I agree there should be a way and I would be interested to hear from you that you succeed, however, I doubt I will live that long!

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:22 am
by philipy
I agree totally with Peter's comments about indoor vs outdoor layouts. Plus, with an indoor exhibition layout, the track is fixed to the boards and its the boards that largely do the alignment, at a reasonabley sensible height which allows access above, below, and probably from both sides. The idea of crawling around in the garden, trying to align all those ends, and without the geometry going to pot, is a nightmare I wouldn't want to think about, much less do.

I have two sections of plain track that cross paths, one straight and one on a curve and both have been down for about 7 or 8 years and get walked on daily, get the mower, wheel barrow and wheely bin, etc, pulled across. The only real problems I have are (a) bits of debris getting stuck between running rails and check rails and that is dealt with by a few mins work with a small screwdriver/scrape. (b) the sloping slabs on one side of one crossing have sunk a bit and the edge of the concrete has started to crumble as a result ( 2nd picture) - I've been thinking for a couple of years that I ought to do some repairs!

The track in both cases is screwed to a concrete base, check rails fitted and then the whole lot concreted solid. I guess there is no reason in principle why you couldn't do the same thing with a couple of turnouts included. but if there was ever a problem with the blade/tie-bar movement it would be next to impossible to repair.
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I've looked again at your sketch plan and without an accurate drawing its difficult to be sure if it would work, but how about this for an idea?:

Could you move the top (RH) turnout to the right and the bottom (LH) T/o to the left, straighten both sections of track and join them by a short length of diagonal track. You would then have three lengths of plain track crossing the path which could be permanently fixed in some way similar to mine (above).
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Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:32 am
by idlemarvel
I think the approach above described by Philip is the best yet if you can live with moving the points. Least obstrusive and least maintenance.

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:25 am
by FWLR
I also agree with Phillips suggestion. It would give you a lot more and you don't really need to be lifting anything...

Re: Suggestions please: removable ground-level section

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:58 am
by MRail
Here's my contribution.
I'm not telling anyone how to do it, but what I did and what works for me:-
[attachment=0]MR190712-001.jpg[/attachment]
The patio step is the main access for washing line (crucial!) and steam-up meetings etc.
[attachment=1]MR190712-002.jpg[/attachment]
Yes, it was raining this morning!
[attachment=2]MR190712-003.jpg[/attachment]
The astro turf shows there is no need to drag a mower over the track, but the wheelie bin makes the crossing for veggie bashing.
After 4 years, it's standing up well.
Best to move the points apart so the moving bits are clear of the concrete.
The fine detail around the frogs etc is "enhanced" with Isopon filler.
On the other side of the grass:-
[attachment=3]MR190712-004.jpg[/attachment]
This step was cast in situ, and the nearer track had to be lifted and re-levelled some time later.
It all seems to stand up to walking over it.

Looking at a preview, I can't tell if the pics are coming out in the correct order,but we'll see!