Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Do you have a problem? Here is the place to appeal for help
siclick33
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:00 pm

Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by siclick33 » Tue May 24, 2022 1:16 pm

I have a lot of experience with RC but none with steam locos. I was a little surprised when I started looking that the main offerings for locos appear to all be based on the Deltang products. I’ve been looking at these and am leaning towards a system from Micron, but have a couple of questions:

1) They offer 2 different transmitters, one with a toggle switch for the reverser and one with a variable knob. I assume the toggle will be fine for roundhouse models? How
Many models are out there that would need a variable reverser?

2) Has anyone used a set from one of the main manufacturers (e.g. Spektrum/Futaba) and, if so, how did you get on with it?

3) Does anyone have any recommendations or advice?

Many thanks,

User avatar
TonyW
Driver
Driver
Posts: 1357
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 9:25 am
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by TonyW » Tue May 24, 2022 2:46 pm

..
Last edited by TonyW on Tue May 24, 2022 3:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
-steves-
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2412
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by -steves- » Tue May 24, 2022 2:59 pm

This I can answer I can answer with quite some experience.

Deltang based, though probably now Micron based RX and TX will work very well for you needs, this would be my preferred setup.

This is the RX I would go for
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/pro ... mr001.html

This is the TX I would go for
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/ima ... lt_500.jpg
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/tx_rail.html#tx24v2

1) They offer 2 different transmitters, one with a toggle switch for the reverser and one with a variable knob. I assume the toggle will be fine for roundhouse models? How
Many models are out there that would need a variable reverser?

I would go for the variable, it saves a lot of messing around trying to get linkages the perfect length and angles, just note how far you need to move it and mark the controller if necessary.
You can also play with the amount of reverser you use to help not only subdue the model, but also create louder "chuffing" sounds. A case of playing and see. The switch reverser needs to be setup very accurately to avoid burning servos out.

2) Has anyone used a set from one of the main manufacturers (e.g. Spektrum/Futaba) and, if so, how did you get on with it?
Yup, tried this, either a lover or a hater from comments I have read. To me, you can't beat a purpose designed small handheld device and a rotary knob compared to two sticks, which either return to centre all the time which is a real PITA if you are doing longer running sessions, or if you remove the centering springs, two sticks where it's more difficult to find centre and the sticks are very very easily knocked causing all sorts of issues, least of all derailment as your pride and joys as it goes flat out towards your sharpest curve :oops: Don't ask :oops:

3) Does anyone have any recommendations or advice?

I have tried a TX22, a TX24, planet 5, Spectrum, Futaba, JR, 2 to 12 channels and this is my best finding to date.
As above. Any questions, please ask away :thumbup:
The buck stops here .......

Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

siclick33
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:00 pm

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by siclick33 » Tue May 24, 2022 10:32 pm

Thanks for your reply.

I will be setting the end points of the reverser servo so that it isn't possible to overdrive the servo and burn it out, so the toggle switch versus rotary dial doesn't concern me from that perspective. I hadn't even realised that there was any position that the reverser could be in, other than forward, neutral or reverse, so I will need to do some research on that.

One of the reasons I asked about the big names is because a lot of them now come with telemetry which, whilst I find extremely useful for model aircraft, I understand that it might have limited benefit for locos, but it would be able to monitor the boiler temperature as a safety feature. None of the big names, however, seem to sell reasonably priced transmitters in a useful (e.g. non-car) format.

I will probably go with the rotary reverser Micron set.

User avatar
-steves-
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2412
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by -steves- » Wed May 25, 2022 5:02 am

siclick33 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:32 pm Thanks for your reply.

I will be setting the end points of the reverser servo so that it isn't possible to overdrive the servo and burn it out, so the toggle switch versus rotary dial doesn't concern me from that perspective. I hadn't even realised that there was any position that the reverser could be in, other than forward, neutral or reverse, so I will need to do some research on that.

One of the reasons I asked about the big names is because a lot of them now come with telemetry which, whilst I find extremely useful for model aircraft, I understand that it might have limited benefit for locos, but it would be able to monitor the boiler temperature as a safety feature. None of the big names, however, seem to sell reasonably priced transmitters in a useful (e.g. non-car) format.

I will probably go with the rotary reverser Micron set.
Great move using the limiting end points on the MR001, as you say, no one wants a burnt out servo to replace all the time.

Although there is of course just 3 positions on a reverser (sort of) using a lot of regulator but limiting it by have it just in forward or reverse makes a big difference on the sound. No idea why really as I would have (clearly incorrectly) assumed that just as much steam is getting through if it's driven at the same speed, but it definitely makes a difference. Maybe due to pressure, no idea, I am sure someone can enlighten me, I only found out by accident. :dontknow:
The buck stops here .......

Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

big-ted
Trainee Fireman
Trainee Fireman
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada.

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by big-ted » Wed May 25, 2022 7:27 am

I've used the mr001 & tx22 set with the toggle switch reverser on a variety of locos:
  • Roundhouse live steam loco with r/c reverser
  • battery electric loco with rx-65 receiver/esc
  • live steam loco with single channel r/c controlling speed & direction through a steam reverser
All worked great. No problem setting up any end points & no burnt out servos.

User avatar
GAP
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:34 pm
Location: Bundaberg QLD Australia
Contact:

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by GAP » Wed May 25, 2022 8:27 am

All I can offer is my experience with a Accucraft "Ruby" I have a servo operating the throttle and one operating the reverser (Johnson Bar in the US)

I use a cheap aircraft style Transmitter/Receiver combo from HobbyKing to control the servos.

I am away at the moment but have some info at home which I can post.
Graeme
From the home of the Ringbalin Light Railway
https://ringbalin-light-railway.blogspo ... -page.html

User avatar
-steves-
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2412
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by -steves- » Wed May 25, 2022 10:48 am

big-ted wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:27 am I've used the mr001 & tx22 set with the toggle switch reverser on a variety of locos:
  • Roundhouse live steam loco with r/c reverser
  • battery electric loco with rx-65 receiver/esc
  • live steam loco with single channel r/c controlling speed & direction through a steam reverser
All worked great. No problem setting up any end points & no burnt out servos.
Nice to see someone else using the end point adjustments that are available on the MR001. Many people do forget this and just let the servo sit there, loudly buzzing away and then wonder why their RC system doesn't work any more, usually blaming it on a "cheap crappy servo", :dontknow: :lol:
The buck stops here .......

Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

big-ted
Trainee Fireman
Trainee Fireman
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada.

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by big-ted » Thu May 26, 2022 5:21 pm

-steves- wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:48 am
big-ted wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:27 am I've used the mr001 & tx22 set with the toggle switch reverser on a variety of locos:
  • Roundhouse live steam loco with r/c reverser
  • battery electric loco with rx-65 receiver/esc
  • live steam loco with single channel r/c controlling speed & direction through a steam reverser
All worked great. No problem setting up any end points & no burnt out servos.
Nice to see someone else using the end point adjustments that are available on the MR001. Many people do forget this and just let the servo sit there, loudly buzzing away and then wonder why their RC system doesn't work any more, usually blaming it on a "cheap crappy servo", :dontknow: :lol:
The next thing I'm bugging Andy about is the ability to change the PWM output of Ch1 from the toggle switch controlling Ch3. That way I can set my loco that uses a steam reverser to be 'low-off,' like my other locos. Having one loco operate differently to my other two is a recipe for disaster as far as my memory is concerned! Andy tells me he's working on it, and to 'watch this space.'

I do suspect there would be a market for a high-end, computer-based transmitter like those used for RC cars and planes, offering intuitive adjustment of trim, sub-trim, neutral points etc from the transmitter, but with simple knobs like those used on Micron R/C, Fosworks etc for control. Making these adjustments using jumpers on the receiver during setup is a little fiddly for a lot of folks, especially when receivers can be tough to access, but having the transmitter so simple, small and elegant is so nice once it's all set up correctly.

siclick33
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:00 pm

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by siclick33 » Thu May 26, 2022 6:50 pm

Another option that can be employed is programmable servos. For example, it looks like the Roundhouse models use Hitec 81 type servos. There is a digital equivalent (5087MG?) where you can programme the direction and end points directly into the servo.

One benefit of this, with simpler receivers like the Micron, is that once the end points are programmed into the servo, nothing you do on the receiver will cause it to go past those limits.

It’s not strictly necessary but the tech is out there.

Phil.P
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:28 pm
Location: Staffs. UK

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by Phil.P » Thu May 26, 2022 8:41 pm

The next thing I'm bugging Andy about is the ability to change the PWM output of Ch1 from the toggle switch controlling Ch3. That way I can set my loco that uses a steam reverser to be 'low-off,' like my other locos. Having one loco operate differently to my other two is a recipe for disaster as far as my memory is concerned! Andy tells me he's working on it, and to 'watch this space.'
Can you message me about this?
It is the receiver that is low, or centre, off.. I am not sure what you are trying to achieve..

Phil Partridge

User avatar
-steves-
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2412
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by -steves- » Fri May 27, 2022 8:41 am

big-ted wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:21 pm
The next thing I'm bugging Andy about is the ability to change the PWM output of Ch1 from the toggle switch controlling Ch3. That way I can set my loco that uses a steam reverser to be 'low-off,' like my other locos. Having one loco operate differently to my other two is a recipe for disaster as far as my memory is concerned! Andy tells me he's working on it, and to 'watch this space.'

I do suspect there would be a market for a high-end, computer-based transmitter like those used for RC cars and planes, offering intuitive adjustment of trim, sub-trim, neutral points etc from the transmitter, but with simple knobs like those used on Micron R/C, Fosworks etc for control. Making these adjustments using jumpers on the receiver during setup is a little fiddly for a lot of folks, especially when receivers can be tough to access, but having the transmitter so simple, small and elegant is so nice once it's all set up correctly.
A steam loco with 2 servos will always work as low off. A reverser servo and a regulator servo. No idea why someone would put just one servo in and try and drive it from a static regulator and a servo on the reverser, what a night mare to try and control.

I have run loco's (and in fact still have some setup) using a Spektrum DX7 and at one point had them on a 14 channel top of the range JR transmitter. Yes the programming that's built in makes servo centering, end point adjustment etc a piece of cake, so easy compared to any other method (assuming you are used to digital TX's otherwise it starts another ball game!). I would say it is so easy it takes the fun away from setting RC up on live steamers and you become over complacent on crap linkage setups, because you can get away with it. If you were running a coal fired gauge 3 and upward, then the extra channels, on the fly feedback and ability to mix channels could prove very useful dependant on the needs required and sensors that could be obtained or built. I digress (as usual, sorry) :oops: As you say, put the contents of a digital tx inside a simple case with a digital readout but rotary knobs instead of stick would hold a place. I certainly would be interested. Actually, I have a couple of DX7's, you have got me thinking of converting one into a specialized loco TX, after all, there is very very little in the actual case of a DX7 and could be made much smaller using rotary knobs. :thumbup:
The buck stops here .......

Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

big-ted
Trainee Fireman
Trainee Fireman
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada.

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by big-ted » Fri May 27, 2022 4:26 pm

-steves- wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:41 am


A steam loco with 2 servos will always work as low off. A reverser servo and a regulator servo. No idea why someone would put just one servo in and try and drive it from a static regulator and a servo on the reverser, what a night mare to try and control.

I have run loco's (and in fact still have some setup) using a Spektrum DX7 and at one point had them on a 14 channel top of the range JR transmitter. Yes the programming that's built in makes servo centering, end point adjustment etc a piece of cake, so easy compared to any other method (assuming you are used to digital TX's otherwise it starts another ball game!). I would say it is so easy it takes the fun away from setting RC up on live steamers and you become over complacent on crap linkage setups, because you can get away with it. If you were running a coal fired gauge 3 and upward, then the extra channels, on the fly feedback and ability to mix channels could prove very useful dependant on the needs required and sensors that could be obtained or built. I digress (as usual, sorry) :oops: As you say, put the contents of a digital tx inside a simple case with a digital readout but rotary knobs instead of stick would hold a place. I certainly would be interested. Actually, I have a couple of DX7's, you have got me thinking of converting one into a specialized loco TX, after all, there is very very little in the actual case of a DX7 and could be made much smaller using rotary knobs. :thumbup:
You've misunderstood my first point. I'll correct this here since I've gotten a couple of questions about this.

Earlier versions of the Merlin Mayflower and Major and, to my knowledge, all versions of the Monarch saddle tank, used valve gear that was fixed in place, with direction being controlled from a steam reverser, similar to a Mamod loco. The valve is closed at center. Speed is controlled by how far the valve is opened from center, and direction is controlled by which direction from center the valve is opened. A single servo is mounted either under the cab or in the side tank, with a control rod running to the steam reverser under the smokebox. What I want to be able to do is have Ch1 on my Tx22 control how far from center the valve is opened (throttle) and Ch3 control which direction from center the valve travels. Since the MR001 outputs a PWM signal to the servos, the duty cycle of which determines the servo set position, I need Ch3 to modify the PWM pattern output of Ch1.

Hopefully that makes more sense?

On the second point, yep, all it would take is just replacing the potentiometers on the current DX7 board. The DX7 is even fancier than I was imagining to be honest. I had a DX5c that offered everything I would want out of a train controller! Would love to see what you come up with!

User avatar
-steves-
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2412
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by -steves- » Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm

Yup, makes perfect sense now, thank you, appears I had the wrong end of the stick by not reading thoroughly :oops: :oops: :oops: :D

Indeed, I might try this DX7 TX, but too much on at the moment, maybe a winter project :)
The buck stops here .......

Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
Jimmyb
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:43 pm
Location: Weston-super-Mare

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by Jimmyb » Sat May 28, 2022 8:35 am

Having read the thread which is asking the question WHICH RC, it has come around to control methods. Just for my input, I have a RH Fowler supplied with RC and has 2 servos 1 for regulator and 1 for the reverser both of which are sprung in a "aircraft type" Tx. From conversations I understand a lot Accucraft do run from a single servo on the reverser, and from my experience when learning to drive my train I did find that a more positive control was through the reverser especially in a downhill runaway. Better driving now means I now use the regulator for this.

big-ted
Trainee Fireman
Trainee Fireman
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada.

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by big-ted » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:17 pm

Since this thread has veered far enough off topic to include general questions pertaining to Deltang-based R/C methods, I'll ask this here (with further apologies to the original poster...)

What are the groups thoughts on the selecta option, and having multiple locos paired to the same controller? Is there a limit to how many locos is ideal to have paired to the same transmitter?

As mentioned above, I currently have two live steam locos and a battery loco, all paired to a single Tx22. In addition, I have two live steam locos that are currently manually controlled. 95% of the time I run at group running days, and would never be operating more than one train at a time. However, on occasion when running on my own, I like to play silly so-and-sos, and try and operate two live steam locomotives simultaneously. So far, I've only done this with one R/C steam loco and either the battery loco, or a manual steam loco.

Is the convenience of having everything on one transmitter outweighed by having to change selecta positions between each loco in use? At some point, I imagine just having a controller for each running loco is more convenient?

I'm teetering on adding R/C to a third of my steam locos. Since I need to order a receiver, I'm tempted to add another transmitter to my order so I can split up the control of my locos a bit. 1st world problems and all that...

User avatar
Jimmyb
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:43 pm
Location: Weston-super-Mare

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by Jimmyb » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:13 am

big-ted wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:17 pm Since this thread has veered far enough off topic to include general questions pertaining to Deltang-based R/C methods, I'll ask this here (with further apologies to the original poster...)

What are the groups thoughts on the selecta option, and having multiple locos paired to the same controller? Is there a limit to how many locos is ideal to have paired to the same transmitter?

As mentioned above, I currently have two live steam locos and a battery loco, all paired to a single Tx22. In addition, I have two live steam locos that are currently manually controlled. 95% of the time I run at group running days, and would never be operating more than one train at a time. However, on occasion when running on my own, I like to play silly so-and-sos, and try and operate two live steam locomotives simultaneously. So far, I've only done this with one R/C steam loco and either the battery loco, or a manual steam loco.

Is the convenience of having everything on one transmitter outweighed by having to change selecta positions between each loco in use? At some point, I imagine just having a controller for each running loco is more convenient?

I'm teetering on adding R/C to a third of my steam locos. Since I need to order a receiver, I'm tempted to add another transmitter to my order so I can split up the control of my locos a bit. 1st world problems and all that...
I have a Micron Tx22 with selecta, though all my locos are battery power, I also have a Crest Revolution, that can control up to 50 devices. (IMHO) If you are running locos on different circuits then that is slightly different, each circuit doing their own thing, but if like me your track is interconnected then I find trying to run two locos and manage points does not work and can lead to a disaster. I think the selecta is great, and a single controller with up to 12 locos on the track make life easy, but actually running more than two locos at the same time (unless your railway is huge) with a single person on controls is not easy. For me it is run one at a time, so I can be fully in control.

Phil.P
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:28 pm
Location: Staffs. UK

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by Phil.P » Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:36 am

As a builder of these.. - As well as running them.:

Certainly, for battery loco's, Selecta gives you a decent cost-saving, on transmitter/controllers.

I find, a loco can be set running (on the 'main line') and then I can have a fiddle, with a bit of shunting. - Perhaps, two loco's in the yard?
Then back to the mainline, to stop that train in a loop..

I don't have my own live-steam loco, but from my (very limited) experience, they need to be 'driven'. - More-so than battery loco's.

I always advocate, having a second transmitter/controller, as you can quickly Bind a loco to it, if you want to let someone have a go.. :thumbright:
If it is a simpler handset, there is less chance of them messing something up.


If you have access to a really large club layout, it may be worth having two controllers? - One for the loco that is running, and one for the loco being prepared, or disposed of.


Like with DCC, I find that controlling three loco's, is a sensible limit..
But tend to 'park two', and have one circulating, once I get into a conversation.. :dontknow:

Aside:
What would people like to be able to control, from a 'simple' single-loco 'steam' handset? - It might be time to offer another model of transmitter..

Phil.P
Phil@rctrains.co.uk

User avatar
ge_rik
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6497
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by ge_rik » Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:11 pm

Like Phil and Jim, I tend to run my locos sequentially rather than simultaneously as I have only one circuit. This means that both locos are usually stationary when I switch between them. At least once during an operating session, I will run two trains at once - for example, send the ore train to run towards the terminus while I'm doing some shunting. But I will usually bring the shunter to a halt before switching to the ore loco.

As Phil says, it's handy having a spare non Selecta tx when visitors call. I now have two Selecta txs and four non Selecta txs. Trouble is, I struggle to remember which loco is bound to which tx and so have a label on the back of each tx listing which locos are bound to which channel on it. It was much easier when I only had one Selecta Tx

Rik
------------------------
Peckforton Light Railway - Blog Facebook Youtube

User avatar
Jimmyb
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:43 pm
Location: Weston-super-Mare

Re: Which RC (and variable reverser question)?

Post by Jimmyb » Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:28 pm

ge_rik wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:11 pm Like Phil and Jim, I tend to run my locos sequentially rather than simultaneously as I have only one circuit. This means that both locos are usually stationary when I switch between them. At least once during an operating session, I will run two trains at once - for example, send the ore train to run towards the terminus while I'm doing some shunting. But I will usually bring the shunter to a halt before switching to the ore loco.

As Phil says, it's handy having a spare non Selecta tx when visitors call. I now have two Selecta txs and four non Selecta txs. Trouble is, I struggle to remember which loco is bound to which tx and so have a label on the back of each tx listing which locos are bound to which channel on it. It was much easier when I only had one Selecta Tx

Rik
Like Rik I have labels to identify Tx/Rx, and also a spreadsheet with that information, and battery type details for charging.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests