Norwegian 3'6" Gauge Stock

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IrishPeter
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Norwegian 3'6" Gauge Stock

Post by IrishPeter » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:02 pm

I keep drawing a blank on dimensioned drawings of NSB 42" - 1067mm bogie passenger coaches - particularly the older arc roof stock.  They seem to be narrower versions of the older standard gauge designs, so I am fairly sure that they are about 16 meters/52'6" long, but they are appreciably slimmer - probably 2.3 metres/7'7" wide - as they are usually 4 a side seating with a centre gangway.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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rebelego
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Post by rebelego » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:49 am


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Post by rebelego » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:56 pm

BTW: Profiles In Norway makes laser cut kits of some Norwegian passenger coaches in scale 1:20. Though, they are models of 750 mm gauge coaches.
http://proinor.no/togmodeller-lgb-tilpa ... sbanen-co/ (only in Norwegian)

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Post by IrishPeter » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:13 pm

Scored on a couple of the commoner 1067mm gauge good stock types on the Proinor site and it tells me that my initial guesses about the size of the goods stock were correct and that 20' to 24' (6 - 7.5 metres) is the norm there. That's one goal achieved!

I think I can take a guess from some of the standard gauge drawings as to the basic dimensions of some of the older 3'6" gauge stuff - such as the width of the seating bays, and go from there.

The last couple of weeks has been a bit Norwegian all round at our house. The wife has been up Nissedal researching her ancestry, and I have been up Setesdal looking at the last remnants of the 1067mm gauge! Whilst I was at it I had a look at some early photos of what is now the Arendalsbanen, (I forget the original name) but it has some possibilities - Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T hauling tplical Norwegian CAP gauge stock.

Thank you,
+Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by rebelego » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:35 am

If you want more info and drawings for specific Norwegian locos or rolling stock, you can try to contact the library at the Norwegian Railway Museum.
http://www.norsk-jernbanemuseum.no/en/l ... he-library

Treungenbanen from Arendal to Treungen had a couple of Beyer Peacock locos, NSB type IV also known as the Tryggve class. Old photos from both narrow gauge and standard gauge eras are found at
http://arendalsbanen.no/bildegalleri/hi ... e_bilder_/

http://digitaltmuseum.no/ is a great resource for old photos. Search for spesific railway name, station name or just general terms like "tog" = train, "damptog" = steam train, "jernbane" = railway or "smalspor" = narrow gauge.

Looking forward to see what you can come up with of Norwegian railway stuff running in Arizona.  :)

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Post by IrishPeter » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:20 pm

I think the BP design was first introduced on the Roerosbanen in the 1860s, and was in turn an adaption of the original Metropolitan Railways design of 1864.  However, the leading truck was Karl Pihl's idea, and a very successful one too.  

Beyer Peacock then recycled the NSB Class IV drawings to produce the well-known - at least to Brits - Isle of Man 2-4-0Ts.  The story goes that the first set of drawings sent to the mechanics in Douglas were headed "Norwegian Tank Locomotive!"  For what it is worth, the first steam locomotive I ever rode behind was IMR No. 4 'Loch' which as originally constructed was a Tryggve with bigger water tanks.  Since then she has received a bigger boiler and water tanks, but still has the rounded cab, and all the other features associated with the early members of the class. 'IMR No. 8 'Fenella' still has the original small boiler, but as it is a 1930s replacement, with Ross 'Pop' safety valves rather than Salter's.  It is an outstanding testimony to both Beyer Peacock, and Carl A. Pihl, who had a hand in the design, that the class whose first example was built in 1866 is still in revenue earning service in 2014.

I am currently hacking around a Bachmann caboose to produce something that looks like a diagram F14 Conductor's van.  The Bachmann model is about a scale metre too short, but otherwise and ideal victim for the bodge-version.  The next thing is some head lamps for the locomotives.

Many thanks for the additional leads!

Cheers,
Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by IrishPeter » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:41 am

An extensive dig in various archives produced a freelance 15m design in 1 to 22.6 scale for a 2nd/3rd composite that I call "BCo23" - which is NSB shorthand for second/third bogie diagram 23.  The underframe for the beast is 665mm long, but is more free-running than any I have produced hitherto.  I put it on the track at the top station and it rolled away coming to rest 110' later where downhill grade on my line finally runs out.  I am hoping to get enough waggle in the couplers that it has no problems with my tightest bends.  I have a 585mm vehicle that has no probs, so 665mm is probably "doable."

The other 15m vehicle I have planned is a CDFo - 3rd-Post-Conductor bogie, so that the dale has all the basic services courtesy of this remote branch of the NSB.

I hope my skills eventually develop to the point where I can build a couple of pot boilered, slip eccentric models of NSB class IV in 1:22.6. I already have some drawing for the 3' gauge version of the original. ;)

Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by IrishPeter » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:43 pm

One thing is intriguing me. How did the Norwegian 3'6" narrow gauge lines heat their carriages? I know it was stoves on the 2'6" gauge UHB, but I cannot find any evidence of conventional stoves on the later 3'6" gauge stock, though many carriages seem to have rectangular section flues rising up through the passenger compartments, which suggests some sort of stove somewhere, but just not in any obvious place in the passenger compartment. I have yet to notice steam heating pipes on a Norwegian NG locomotive, they usually seem to have one, or a pair of air brake hoses, so I am assuming some sort of solid fuel heating or foot-warmers. I just cannot imagine the latter cutting the mustard in the Scandinavian winter.

Can anyone help me my puzzlement?

Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by rebelego » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:01 am

I'm afraid I'm not into such details. :)
I know foot-warmers with hot water were used in the early days.
I guess stoves were used later.

You will probably get a fast answer in the forum of the Norwegian Railway Club
http://medlem.njk.no/forum/forum.php?velgerom=1
or the Norwegian Model Railway Association.
http://forum.mjf.no/

If you manage to navigate the Norwegian pages to register,
I don't think people mind if you post your question in English. :)

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Post by kandnwlr » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:16 pm

IrishPeter:103103 wrote:One thing is intriguing me.  How did the Norwegian 3'6" narrow gauge lines heat their carriages?  I know it was stoves on the 2'6" gauge UHB, but I cannot find any evidence of conventional stoves on the later 3'6" gauge stock, though many carriages seem to have rectangular section flues rising up through the passenger compartments, which suggests some sort of stove somewhere, but just not in any obvious place in the passenger compartment.  I have yet to notice steam heating pipes on a Norwegian NG locomotive, they usually seem to have one, or a pair of air brake hoses, so I am assuming some sort of solid fuel heating or foot-warmers.  I just cannot imagine the latter cutting the mustard in the Scandinavian winter.

Can anyone help me my puzzlement?

Peter in AZ
Even though the French winter doesn´t compare, I discovered some foot warmers in a First Class carriage at the Mulhouse National Rail Museum recently, wrapped tastefully in matching carpet.

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Post by rebelego » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:06 pm

Came across this drawing.

Image

12 such coaches where built between 1913 and 1919 for Drammensbanen, Vestfoldbanen and Arendalsbanen. The number 335 was transfered from Drammen to Setesdalsbanen in 1950.

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Post by IrishPeter » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:00 pm

Nice! Thank you very much.

I will put it on the rolling stock building list as a 'windfall' from the rebuilding of the Vestfoldbanen to standard gauge in 1949.  It will be an interesting one to build as 17.1 metres is going to pencil out around 750-760mm, which will be a challenge with my track geometry.  At least my sharpest bends are 1.5 metre radius, which at least gives me a fighting chance.

I am currently working on a carriage based on the original Vossebanen NG bogie stock, which according to the IJ's back story, came to the line in 1905 after the Bergen-Voss line had been rebuilt.  They are quite distinctive looking with their short sections of clerestory on the roof.  I just hope I can get that effect right.

The other two vehicles are planned to be a couple of arc roofed vehicles of 1890s vintage - some sort of BCo, for which I already have a frame made, and a CDFo, so the IJ can work mail and packages as well as passenger and goods traffic.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by Hagen » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:32 pm

more like 53cm, that is a standard gauge wagon and as such should be 1/32 or thereabouts.

All Norwegian rail was converted to standard gauge at some point, even the trams run on standard gauge.

I would ask Proinor (Arild Kjærås) for information you need. He does some very good kits of Norwegian 3'6" stock (and other scales and nations too).
Could be that some of the narrow gauge lines used the same way to heat wagons that the standard gauge did. a special heater wagon that distributed steam or warm water throughout the train.
You could do a search for "finke" that is what they called them.

Here's one of a slightly newer vintage
http://shop.nmj.no/images/finke_med_noh ... _slide.jpg
Rune Hagen
Kongsberg, Norway

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Post by IrishPeter » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:02 pm

No, definitely narrow gauge, as Co type 22 Nr. 335 is a narrow gauge vehicle, and still exists on the Setesdalsbanen out of Grovane, a few miles north of Kristiansund.  See http://www.setesdalsbanen.no/ for more information.  The give away is the width.  Standard gauge stock tends to be around 3100mm wide by the 1910s, whilst the latest narrow gauge stock was about 2500mm wide.

On NSB, the Vestfoldsbanen was the last section was converted in 1949, and most of the surviving NG stock, including some real antiquities from the Roerosbanen had accumulated there, with odd items going to the Setesdalsbanen.  

A few lines remained 1067mm gauge until closure.  A short section of the Setesdalsbanen survives as museum railway, and is the last stretch of 1067mm gauge in use in Norway.  The Setesdalsbanen was the last section of 3'6" (1067mm) gauge railway operated by NSB, and it lasted until 1962. There was another privately owned line that connected into the SG Nordlandsbanen which operated until 1972.  Some of that line's equipment - a railcar and a carriage - found its way to Grovane, and a few other items, including a surviving locomotive,  to Hamar.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by Hagen » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:26 pm

I am sorry. You are absolutely correct :D
I would still recommend Arilds kits ;)
Rune Hagen
Kongsberg, Norway

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