Light Railway Signalling - UK

[IrishPeter]

As you may have noticed the Ross and Cromarty Light Railway idea is back in play, and I am now far enough on with track laying to worry about signals. Now I am fairly well up on mainline practice so my first thoughts were to make a fairly minimal installation to mainline standards, but then I remembered that Light Railways had more leeway.

What I have come up with is the following:

Crossing Station
Fixed Distants - basically a fish tail arm on a post with a yellow lamp - a good way out.

At entrance to the loop in both up and down directons - a home signal

At far end of the loop in both directions - a board saying 'STOP - obtain staff before proceeding.'

Level Crossings
Depending on whether or not they are blind either a 5mph speed restriction sign and a whistle board, or a 'Stop-Blow and Go.'

Termini
Fixed Distant, home signal at station entrance, and possibly, if I am feeling generous, a starter at the end of the platform. There will, for the sake of consistency be a 'STOP - obtain staff before proceeding" board at the end of the platform as well.

Do the S&T geeks -erm- experts think this enough to keep Clan V Isle off my back? For example, do I need working starters given that this is a light railway worked on staff and ticket?

Many thanks,
Peter in AZ

[TommyDodd]

Sounds good enough to me.

[hussra]

I have to confess that I get the impression that "STOP - obtain staff before proceeding" and similar boards are really quite a recent thing - think you'd be fine with just the fixed distants and a homes.

[Andrew]

For an unusual but very light railway feel you could use combined starter/home signals on a single post at each end of your stations, like the KESR, Southwold (I think?) and others. They'd add character and I've never seen them modelled in 16mm.

Back when my railway was intended to be a freelance Colonel Stephens line I was planning to knock up some of these (possibly using Big big Train signal parts, wonder if it would have worked?) but now I've gone all Welsh Highland I don't need any signals at all. I might model the rotten stumps of the old NWNGR ones...

All the best,

Andrew.

[IrishPeter]

Come to think about it, Richard, I think you are right about 'Stop - obtain token before proceeding' boards. The first ones I remember are from when the Whitby Branch was converted to 'Electric Token; No Signalman Working' about 30 years ago. I suspect that before that it would have been in the rules and regulations, the WWT, or both, and no visual reminder would have been given.

I think 'stop-blow & go' is much older, though I cannot remember what form it took before the red dot reflectve sign became the norm in the 1970s. Probably a wooden board with three words 'STOP - WHISTLE - PROCEED' attached to a sawn off signal post.

All I could dig up about Light Railway signalling regulations was that the signals required were

(a) home signals at crossing loops
(b) distant signals if (a) not visible at a range of 440 yards.

I would imagine that the same rules applied to junctions, though obvously one would need a bracket signal for the actual divergence of routes.

The Inspector could insist on other signalling, but usually did so only when there was a sighting problem. For example, a gated level crossing which was not visible for, I assume, the usual 440 yards would need some sort of signal. I seem to recall reading that the K&ESR had a home signal that worked off a rod connected to the gate mechanism at one LC, which sounds fun. I think I would have been tempted to drive Clan V.Isle crazy and make it a disc and lamp signal.

I must admit to falling about a bit with laughter/disbelief at what happened at Castle Ceirenion between 1907 and 1911 when I read what they did with the box on signalbox.org. Apparently it was commissioned every spring, then disconnected each autumn with a reversion being made to the ground frames whilst the line was on one train operation! I mean, did they really do that? I would have thought a key to the signal box door attached to the OES staff would have been easier! Oh, hang on! Easier... I guess they must have done it then... as it is easier to deal with local groundframes than walk back and forth to the box to waggle levers.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[Narrow Minded]

... as it is easier to deal with local groundframes than walk back and forth to the box to waggle levers.

And don't forget there were those steps to climb!

[hussra]

I must admit to falling about a bit with laughter/disbelief at what happened at Castle Ceirenion between 1907 and 1911 when I read what they did with the box on signalbox.org.  Apparently it was commissioned every spring, then disconnected each autumn with a reversion being made to the ground frames whilst the line was on one train operation!  I mean, did they really do that?

The Welshpool is not my chosen specialist subject, but something extremely similar certainly was done at Capel Bangor on the Vale of Rheidol, where they had "west winter", "east winter" and "summer" ground frames, and the first train of the season carried the signal arms for re-erection.

[MDLR]

I seem to recall reading that the K&ESR had a home signal that worked off a rod connected to the gate mechanism at one LC, which sounds fun.

I did that in 009, with a disc signal worked by a crank off the operating crossing gates - fine once you got all the angles right (which involved a lot of fiddling with the soldering iron under the baseboard!)

[IrishPeter]

If I had tried to do that I would have set the baseboards on fire!  Paradoxically I am much less of a danger to myself and the general public messing around with small mobile kettles in the garden than playing with electric mice in the house!  Though my OO9 days where when I found out about magic smoke... I'll say no more!

Reading various responses I think I can keep it down to a distant on the blind side, and a home signal in each direction at the passing station, and dispense with the dorky noticeboards.  A case of less is more methinks.

Also when I was rooting around the signalling websites I came across a 1930s LNER proposal for a simplified, sign based, signalling system for minor lines.  They actually installed it on the Pilmoor to Knareborough SG line, and they had intended to use it on the Wensleydale line to Hawes as well, but did not get that far.  Trying to resist the temptation to find an empty (i.e. rail-less) Borders Valley or Yorkshire Dale!  Though of course, if the Great North of Scotland had been involved in the shinnanagans that lead to the Cromarty Light Railway... Dang! Modellers' ADD again.

Thank you for the input!

Peter in AZ

[Narrow Minded]

A case of less is more methinks.

I don't think you can go far wrong with that approach - even though you might upset any "signalling purists", the overall Narrow Gauge 'feel' will benefit
(and in response to any "purists" comments, you will of course simply point out that it's your line )

Now then, the signals themselves - are you planning kits or scratchbuilds?
I only ask since one of my first jobs for 2013 will be a junction signal for the Quarry Branch

[IrishPeter]

I am humming and hawing about whether I go with kits or scratchbuild. Chances are it will depend on funds. If the golden vulture has visited me recently I will probably use the Roundhouse McKenzie and Holland kits. If not, it will be scratch built Dutton equipment. I am assuming the influence of the neighbouring big railway - the Highland Railway - would have given the Lairds' Line a healthy shove in the direction of either Dutton or McK & H equipment for its signalling, as that was what they favoured themselves. However, I will probably have a good look round for signalling bits and pieces before making the final decision.

At present I am envisioning groundframes to control the points at the termini possibly with starting signals for the single line, but they are not strictly required. The intermediate loop might get a small box, or perhaps the usual Highland Railway arrangement of what is basically an enclosed groundframe at either end of the station and the single line instruments (theoretically) in the station building. It just depends what I fancy building when I get that far. Then again I might decide that whoever is working the groundframes might find the January air bracing... (!)

Peter in AZ

[MDLR]

If you're looking at scratch building, you might like to take a look here: http://www.modelsignals.com/10&16mm_scale_frame.htm for some components.............

[IrishPeter]

I have ended up going with the LNER signboard based experimental "signalling system" as it has the merit of being dead simple whilst maintaining the basics of UK practice. This was the result of the need to reduce costs on branchines as by the 1930s the LNER was finding the NER penchant for using three signals where one/two would do a little rich for their taste. The pilot scheme was the Knaresborough - Pilmoor line. This was to be followed by Northallerton - Hawes and the Axholme Light Railway.  I have just added the fictional Coverdale Light Railway to that list with the work being done in 1936/7 just after the Pilmoor line, then WW2 intervenes and nothing more is heard of the scheme.

The key to the LNER system was the use of distinctive boards.  The location board (basically Distant signal) was a horizontal diagonally striped black and white board with a WWW pattern of reflectors.  The 'Limit of Section board was vertical, red and white, with reflectors around the edge and three clusters of red reflectors along the centre line, and basically functioned as the home signal with trains being called-on into stations with a 'Station Board' which consisted of a green square on a white background with a flap that could cover both green square and lamp when required.  The station board could be turned through 180 degrees which meant that two trains could not be called into the loop at the same time.  There were also distinctive boards for LCs that acted as the distant and home signals at gated LCs.

I ended up adapting the board signals a bit in that the black/yellow 'GATE' board is fixed and the gates are TMO on the CLR.  Ordinary (for a light railway) open crossings get a white LNER cut-out speed restriction board and a whistle sign which I think is correct for the period! Of course I may still have the fir of the dithers and go for semaphores, but I do not want anything too visible from the road, so the signs work to my advanage that way. The tendancy that my neighbours have for putting weird stuff in their front yards should save the buildings from any unwelome attention, and they do not have a six foot fence and dogs...

The "signalling" also has a practical function which is to give me some visual cues on when to open and close the regulator. The CLR has some awkward curves and gradients, and it is a very real possibility that one could have a runaway and roll-over at several points on the line.      

Peter in AZ

[IrishPeter]

For an unusual but very light railway feel you could use combined starter/home  signals on a single post at each end of your stations, like the KESR, Southwold (I think?) and others. They'd add character and I've never seen them modelled in 16mm.
<snip>

All the best,

Andrew

Took a shuffty at what you mean on google images, and yes, they are a little unusual.  The one that really caught my eye had no less than 3 arms hanging off a common post.  If it read conventionally, then the upper arm was for the LHline, the lowest for the RH line, and the starter for the opposite direction was hung between them with its reverse side towards the camera.  The L&MVLR had the home and starter at Hulme end hung off the same post, though that signal may have been for a LC rather than the station.

The three-armed K&ESR signal was such an eccentric creation that I deemed it worthy, so the idea has an appeal!  In the case of my line it will be a case of the 'up' starter and the 'down home (or vce versa) occupying the same post.  I am thinking that the main intermediate station would have run to a porter-signalman to waggle the levers....  Either that, or it is back to the LNER signboards.  I am getting increasingly keen to keep the termini signal-free apart from a starter that does double duty to protect a gate level crossing. On the other hand, semaphore signals may just prove irresistable targets for small white dogs....

Peter in AZ

[Andrew]

For an unusual but very light railway feel you could use combined starter/home  signals on a single post at each end of your stations, like the KESR, Southwold (I think?) and others. They'd add character and I've never seen them modelled in 16mm.
<snip>

All the best,

Andrew

Took a shuffty at what you mean on google images, and yes, they are a little unusual.  The one that really caught my eye had no less than 3 arms hanging off a common post.  

The one at Tenterden Town? Great isn't it? I always think it's a shame that the preservationists couldn't have recreated that, but I guess it wouldn't meet modern standards. As I recall the starter's on the end of the platform now and there's an advanced starter beyond the level crossing. The home's a whopping great bracket signal halfway down Tenterden Bank - my Grandpa used to volunteer as a signalman and it could be quite a struggle to pull it off...

Cheers,

Andrew

[IrishPeter]

I suspect the S&T Department was buying the beer when the decision was made on how to resignal the line, as I do not see a huge compliance issue with the original arrangement, especiallyas the signal that is 'wrong side' is the starter.  As the K&ESR stands to day it is a positive cornucopia of Southern Signalling, just not very light railway.  

Paradoxically the IMR, which is not a light railway, preserves the Light Railway feel the best.  This is because of the lack of the 1889 "Lock, Block and Brake Act" on the Island. As a result the IOM remained in an 1880s timewrap as things moved on in the UK. The only exception being the installation at Douglas made by Dutton in 1892, which was inline with the 1889 Act as Dutton stuck to the BOT's script rather than invent something different for the IMR.  The old layout at Douglas went in two stages - 1970 and 1979 - so it is now back to the usual Manx handlevers and a sharp lookout. As a result, the IMR actually has the best Light Railway feel of the lines with which I am familiar, though it lacks the many small local groundframes which were characteristic of Light Railways due to the lack of any requirement to (inter)lock points and signals, or use FPLs.  

When I was a kid, the local passenger light railway was the Lincolnshire Coast Light, which was then on its original site at Humberston.  It was absolutely great when it came to the light railway atmosphere with its weedy track, wiggly tin buildings, two- and three-lever groundframes and sleeper built platforms.  It possess precisely one signal, a recycled GN somersault signal which was the starter at North Sea Lane.  This was allegedly installed 'to stop trains buggering off before time.'  Someone had taken umbrage at the fact the train used to leave when full, and not neccessary on the scheduled.

The local goods light railway was the SG North Lindsey Light which runs northwards from Frodingham (Scunthorpe).  These days it ends about 400 yds short of the Winterton and Thealby station site to serve a landfill, but it used to wander further north to Winteringham and Whitton.  In the 1970s it was open a mile or so further north than it is today to serve a scrapyard where old wagons were cut up.  The outer end being distinctly Light Railway - few if any signals, open crossings with '03s' and '08' creeping across the roads at 5mph.  OTOH the inner end was signalled, but had some peculiarities such as being distinctly thin on distants.  In those days the old Normanby Park Steel Works was still open so there was heavy traffic to/from Flixborough Wharf, and the sidings by the steelworks were governed by a multi-post bracket and a signalbox at both ends.  The north end signalbox had a 30 or 36 lever frame, and was of the standard late MS&L/early GCR type.  The main box was a big beggar which looked like a brick-based variant of the GCR pattern, but the brickwork may have been an anti-air raid modification from the 1940s.  It was quite a study in contrasts!  

Another local Light Railway was the Barton and Immingham which ran from Goxhill to Immingham.  The Goxhill - Barrow - Barton stretch was never built due the presence of a perfectly useful Barton branch.  However, they ran to an interesting line in wiggly tin sheds which may well manifest itself on the CLR!

Peter in AZ

[IrishPeter]

Having thought about it for a while I have decided to go with the 'best of both worlds' option.  Ridley and Ryle Bank are getting the LNER board signals, and there is an intention to eventually provide Scotsdyke and Coverdale with multiple armed signals a la K&ESR or L&MVLR.  My excuse is my usual "Excursions, Bank Holidays and Market Days."  The boards for the loop at Ridley were finished this afternoon and planted out by the line side. Now I need to install the loop and siding, and make the station board are a building to hang it off!

The thinking is that as simple passing stations, Ridley and Ryle Bank do not need much in the way of signalling.  OTOH, Coverdale and Scotsdyke occasionally get a little more complicated when a two train service is operating with the station staff needing to signal the first train into the main platform (think Devil's Bridge in BR days) to run round and water and shunt into the loop before departing from the subsiduary platform face shortly after the arrival of the second train.  Of course flagging would work, but I can imagine a point being reached where more permanent arrangements would need to be made, and the flexibility to use the loop platform for arrivals would also be nice.

Now we are into a spell of warmer weather - mid-50s and no prospect of significant precipitation - I can get on with two projects.  A shed for the missus and completing the earthworks for the CLR.  Given that one requires holes to be dug, and the other requires fill you can see how the two might just have a symbiotic relationship...  ;)

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[IrishPeter]

I decided that I would check the sight lines for the various boards needed to signal the CLR. Everything was OK except at Ridley where I discovered the sighting is absolute rubbish. Outcrop of rock in the way one way, and a bush in the way t'other. It seems that the original LNER version will need a bit of modification to work on the CLR.

The initial thought was to put two sighting boards in the middle of the station, and have the model operator call-on one train with a lamp or flag then walk across and call-on the other. This was a bit lacking in elegant simplicity, so it was time for another think whilst planting another block for the foundations to herself's shed.

I then remember something about the similar system of signalling used on DR/DB 'nebenbahnen.' Instead of using a station board, they originally used a flag, a hand held lamp, or bugle (the last named doubtless appealed to Prussians) but later on they mounted a light over the section limit board which was flashed 'short-long-short' to admit a train to the station. White lamps were for illumination in the UK in the days before point indicators and good stuff like that, however, it did give me something to work with.

My favourite idea right now is to mount a green lamp above the Section Limit board which is illuminated to call-on approaching trains. It will need some sort of three position switch so the two lamps are activated through the same control, and also be sprung so that when there is no opertor's paw holding it down both lamps are out. However, it does satisfy my requirement to be very simple.

I am still going have a convention semaphore somewhere - unless the dog's make too much of a habit of cocking their legs against the post....

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[hussra]

Hmmmm. The awkward-sighting locations I'm most familar with are (inevitably) on the Talyllyn. Here's the view of Quarry Siding in the up direction (this is an older photo, before the big shed was built):



See that little white square to the right of the track, just beyond the occupation crossing? When you know the train has left Dolgoch (a buzzer sounds, these days), the Blockman ambled down to stand at that board. When the loco whistles, the Blockman frantically waves the flag (be it green or yellow) in front of the white board, which is there to help the loco crew identify the spot they are looking out for. As soon as they see the flag, they give a quick "pop" on the whistle, and the Blockman legs it back to the frame again.

Approaching Nant Gwernol (very rarely manned), it's similar - here's the Blockman's view down the line approaching from Abergynolwyn:



and here's the driver's view up towards the station, which is just around Big Bend:



To be seen, you have to walk down and wave the flag right at the stop board (which covers the 'U' board when it's manned), then leg it back to the platform once they see the flag. (Being careful not to get run over by the approaching train you have just signalled in over the track you're walking along.)

[IrishPeter]

I like "flag it and leg it" even better. Which was your favourite version of the sighting board - the present plain white of the black and white quarters that preceeded it?

Peter in AZ