Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

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Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by Andrew » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:44 pm

Hello all,

As I mentioned on my railway thread, I'm working on reviving "Shuntomatic System 3000", the name my children gave to my attempt (some years ago now...) at randomly generating goods trains and traffic on my railway. Since then the children have lost interest (in fairness, going to University didn't help...) and the railway's developed, including gaining enough Welsh highland and Ffestiniog wagons to make it worth trying something a little more realistic.

So, the aims of the exercise are:

1) To create interesting (and not entirely predictable) operations.
2) To recreate aspects of historic Welsh Highland operations.
3) To have fun.

Not all of those things are entirely compatible with the others, but I'm hoping to find a good blend...

It's occurred to me that I can "desktop" this without actually running trains, by simply developing a system and testing it with the cards that will represent the wagons. A good proportion of the (WH)WHR's trains only run in my head anyway, so it won't really be any different. I can test it out, changing and tweaking it as necessary to get something that works in theory before I try it out in the garden. A couple of you have expressed an interest, so I thought I'd conduct my experiments in public...

First of all, here's an updated plan of the layout:

(WH)WHR plan.jpg
(WH)WHR plan.jpg (143.5 KiB) Viewed 5265 times

As you can see, lack of siding space is a big problem, but not one that's easily resolved. It might stop the whole thing working terribly well, we'll have to see how it goes...

A brief overview of the line and its traffic flows goes like this:

The line to Clarach is a three mile branch of the Welsh Highland Railway, from which it diverges at a junction between Rhyd Ddu and Beddgelert. The branch passes through Trefechan before serving a granite quarry and timber yard in the village of Penlan, then continues on to Clarach. The main traffic from here is slate, from the Clarach Quarry, but the railway also serves the small village which gives the quarry its name.

There is sufficient slate traffic to warrant the running of trains specifically for this purpose, with other loads catered for by a daily pick-up goods train. As well as bringing granite and timber down the line to be carried further afield by main line railway or by sea, these trains carry coal, flour, meat and other essentials to the communities served by the branch. Beer and wines are conveyed to the public houses and hotels, including the popular Black Lion Hotel in Clarach, which also receives occasional deliveries of Porthmadog sea water for those of its guests wishing to partake in a reviving salt water bath. Other loads include gunpowder for the quarries and manure for the farms, brought from the streets of the cities.

Steep gradients, sharp curves and short loops mean that trains are limited to just seven wagons and a guards van, with further restrictions being imposed by the poor unloading facilities at Clarach which, due to its location on thin rock shelf on the side of the valley, can accommodate just four wagons.


Timber and granite traffic did feature at times on the WHR (and more so on its predecessor, the NWNGR), and the other loads are all genuine too, with the exception of brine, which I pinched from the FR - the brine wagon did end up perched on a tower of sleepers as a water tank at Pont Croesor though! I don't know whether the real thing ever did, but my version of the WHR will borrow the FR's hearse as required, and a gunpowder van too - I believe gunpowder travelled in normal vans on the real Welsh Highland.

Slate wagons aside, those currently available (including two I've not actually built yet but which will be necessary for operations!) are:

WHWHR Wagons.jpg
WHWHR Wagons.jpg (142.55 KiB) Viewed 5265 times

Apologies, that table didn't reproduce very well, but you get the idea...

The WHR and FR had separate sequences for numbering their wagons (in fact the WHR appears to have had several), but for simplicity's sake I've been able to give each wagon a unique number so far.

More next time! I might be ready to run some imaginary trains by the end of the week...

Cheers,

Andrew.

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 style!

Post by Lonsdaler » Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:21 pm

Wot? No fish? :lol:

I'm interested to understand the thinking behind not having the gunpowder van next to the hearse? And I love the name, it's suitably Wallace & Gromity :thumbup:
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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 style!

Post by Andrew » Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:28 pm

Lonsdaler wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:21 pm I'm interested to understand the thinking behind not having the gunpowder van next to the hearse?
That was an afterthought! It occurred to me that if the risk of explosion is too great for living folk, getting blown to bits might be a little disrespectful to the dead ones too. Although I guess, being quarry workers, that might be why the poor souls are in the hearse anyway...

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 style!

Post by Lonsdaler » Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:49 pm

Andrew wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:28 pm That was an afterthought! It occurred to me that if the risk of explosion is too great for living folk, getting blown to bits might be a little disrespectful to the dead ones too. Although I guess, being quarry workers, that might be why the poor souls are in the hearse anyway...
:shock: :lol:
Now, if it was a crematory van... :bom:
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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 style!

Post by ge_rik » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:21 am

Fascinating stuff. Really looking forward to seeing how it will work in simulation and in practice. Basing it on loads rather than wagons (as with my system) makes it a lot more realistic and creative. Presumably, empty stock may need to travel to a destination to pick up some waiting goods if no relevant wagon is already there.

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 style!

Post by Andrew » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:26 am

ge_rik wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:21 am Presumably, empty stock may need to travel to a destination to pick up some waiting goods if no relevant wagon is already there.
Yes, that's the idea. A load might be "Granite from Penlan", which will require an empty wagon to be sent up the line if there's not already something suitable sitting in the siding. I'm hoping to finish the "paperwork" at lunchtime today so that I can try it out later in the week...

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 style!

Post by ge_rik » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:51 am

Further thought.... Will your system allow for mixed loads in a wagon? Eg could half a load of flour share a wagon with a quarter load of booze?
I assume you're not going to use the hearse for mixed loads .... :shock: :? :D

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 style!

Post by Andrew » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:30 am

ge_rik wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:51 am Further thought.... Will your system allow for mixed loads in a wagon? Eg could half a load of flour share a wagon with a quarter load of booze?
I think that might over complicate things, but most of my traffic (including the deceased...) is probably only suited to full wagons anyway. Most small general goods would probably have gone in the guards van (WHR goods brakes were "road vans", with space for goods and parcels as well as the poor guard), but I will have some "general goods" loads, which would be a mixed wagonload.

I haven't decided yet whether bogie wagons will be assumed to carry a double load. I think they will where coal or granite are concerned, because they take up two wagon lengths in the train or sidings, not sure about timber or general goods yet, may have to see how it pans out...

Glad it's exercising your brain as well as mine - although I should be thinking about something else entirely right now (ie the stuff they pay me for), so I'd better get back to it!

Andrew.

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 style!

Post by Andrew » Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:46 pm

Here are a few further "behind the scenes" preparations for the new version of Shuntomatic...

Firstly, the overall idea...

The 2022 edition of Shuntomatic System 3000 will control goods movements (other than slate trains) between Clarach, Penlan, and the rest of the Welsh Highland and Festiniog Railways. For these purposes, no traffic starts or finishes at Trefechan, which instead represents all other destinations.

Loads are represented by cards, which are drawn at random to determine the traffic requirements for that operating session (representing a day). Wagons are represented by a further deck of cards, from which suitable wagons are chosen. Empty wagons should be sent to meet a traffic need at stations where no suitable vehicles are already available. If suitable wagons are unavailable, the load will be noted as "pending" and handled as soon as possible on a later day.

All wagons will start each day at the place they finished last, and most will require an additional day at their destination to be loaded or unloaded.
The locations and current situation of each wagon (eg awaiting unloading at Penlan) will be probably be recorded by positioning wagon cards in labelled wallets in a folder, but for initial (theoretical) testing I'll use labelled piles on my desk...



And secondly, the instructions:



• Check the lists and place wagons in the sidings at Penlan and Clarach as required.

• Change the note on the cards for these wagons to indicate whether they are now being loaded/unloaded, or are ready for collection.

• Roll the dice to determine which brake van will be allocated to the train:

4 = WHR Van 4
5 = FR Van 5
Any other number = WHR Van 2

• Check the “Pending” list for loads awaiting a suitable wagon. If wagons are now available, add these to your train.

• Roll the dice again to see how many other wagons are required.

• Draw that number of load cards to determine which cargos they will need to carry.

• Check against available wagon cards to choose suitable vehicles. WHR wagons should be allocated ahead of FR ones where possible. Where empty wagons are already available at a station, and are suitable for the load required, these may allocated.

• If suitable wagons are not available, or if the train will consist of more than 7 wagons, loads should be added to the Pending list as appropriate. Note that bogie vehicles count as two wagons when calculating train length.

• Any load cards not in the Pending list should be returned to the pack.

• Assemble the train, noting any special instructions on the wagon cards.

• Run the train, dropping off wagons as required at Penlan and Clarach. Add wagon cards to the appropriate lists to indicate that wagon’s correct location and update notes to indicate they have arrived.

• Pick up wagons which are ready for collection, up to the maximum permitted train length. Prioritise returning those belonging to the FR, or those required for “Pending” loads.

• Due to the track layout, Penlan should be shunted in the “up” direction if possible. If necessary, and if no passenger trains are running, wagons may be left in the loop to be collected on the return journey.

• Wagon cards for returned vehicles should be restored to the pack.



Whether all of that works, of course, remains to be seen...

Lastly, for now, here's how the number of load cards has been decided - essentially a number to represent the wagons available for a particular traffic multiplied by another number indicating the frequency that load might be required. The latter number is influenced by an attempt to recreate historic traffic flows combined with the desire to keep operations interesting and enjoyable. Again, we shall have to see if it works!

WHWHR Load cards.jpg
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I think that's all for now. Tomorrow I'll print some cards, and then I can start playing...

Cheers,

Andrew.

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by BertieB » Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:58 pm

The nuances and subtleties of all this go way over my head — but I enjoy this sort of detailed back story / justification for why the railway is the way it is — let alone that it organises what trains to run today.

Title’s terrific. Shouldn’t it be: Shunt-O-Matic’? (in an agreeable 50s script)

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by Andrew » Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:03 pm

BertieB wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:58 pm Shouldn’t it be: Shunt-O-Matic’? (in an agreeable 50s script)
You're right! Let me work on that...

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Re: Shunt-O-Matic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by Andrew » Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:24 pm

Just for you Bertie...

Shuntomatic.jpg
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That's the best I can do with Word, Paint, a clockwork robot and the 1951 Eagle Book of Trains...

Cheers!

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by BertieB » Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:55 pm

Brilliant! Love it.

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by Soar Valley Light » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:50 pm

HI Andrew,

This is great stuff! I love the idea of being able to run the system on paper. It's coming on a treat.

Just a though about bogie wagon loads. Although the wagon counts for 2, the load may only be a single one if it is a long load (timber, steel, etc) that is too long for a single wagon.

Counting a wagon length as more than one mirrors the national network. A book was issued when the Standard Loading Unit (SLU) was introduced, detailing the number of SLU's a wagon counted as in, I believe in 0.1 or 0.2 increments (1.2 SLU's or 1.8 SLU's as appropriate).

I'm looking forward t o giving this a go myself.

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by Phil.P » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:09 pm

Of course, you realise you will have to make (and wear) the robot outfit, when you come to make the instructional video?

Will it be available on Philips, as well as that new-fangled VHS?

:thumbleft:

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by Andrew » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:37 pm

Phil.P wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:09 pm Of course, you realise you will have to make (and wear) the robot outfit, when you come to make the instructional video?

Will it be available on Philips, as well as that new-fangled VHS?

:thumbleft:
The local Odeon will be showing it as a Newsreel, narrated by a plummy-voiced chap hailing "a breakthrough in Great British innovation and efficiency"...

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by Andrew » Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:34 pm

On Friday lunchtime, the 2022 edition of Shunt-o-matic System 3000 made its long-awaited debut - sort of. The trains were imaginary, but it was still quite exciting as I shuffled the newly cut out "load cards" and rolled the (virtual, online) dice...

It seems that there was considerable pent-up demand for the railway's services, because on the very first go I rolled a six...

Duly picking six cards at random from the pack, the required loads were revealed as two wagon-loads of coal, some flour, and some general goods for Penlan, a wagon to carry timber away again, plus a consignment of gunpowder for Clarach.

Turning to which wagons to pick, I opted for a bogie open to carry both loads of coal, a bogie flat for the timber, both of my available vans for the flour and general goods, and (naturally...) the gunpowder van for that load. The two bogie vehicles make it the longest permissible train length, and the variety of vehicles (an assortments of colours, shapes and sizes) makes for a fun first train. Welsh Highland brake van number 2 brings up the rear.

The presence of the GPV means that the train will have to shunt at Penlan on the Down run rather than the Up, because otherwise it would end up sandwiched between the loco and the guards van, so there's a bit of added operational interest there too - we're off to a good start!

This being the first run, there aren't any wagons to return to Trefechan, so the engine will trundle back down the line "horse and cart" (ie with just the brake, but I do like that phrase...) ready for the following day's trains...

For this trial run, I'm recording how it goes in a simple table - for this first run there's nothing to record other than the number rolled ("demand"), the loads drawn and their destination (or station at which they're required, in the case of empties), and the wagons chosen for the job.

Day One.jpg
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Day Two begins with those wagons still sitting in the sidings - they'll stay there all day, because I've decreed that most loads take a day to load or unload, which is recorded in the table. There are no loads "pending", because on the first day we were able to fulfil all traffic requirements.

There's a little less demand today - Flour, meat and an empty granite wagon for Penlan, and coal for Clarach. Alas, we're out of vans for flour, so that will have to wait for another day, but the rest are fairly simple - the meat van, small dropside open number 17, and coal wagon number 3, along with guards van 2 again. It's another pleasingly varied train - the off-white meat van will stand out nicely against the maroon of the other three vehicles.

Again, there are no vehicles ready to return, so the engine and guards van will return alone. Incidentally, the first two virtual runs have necessitated the use of the two wagons I've not built yet, the bogie flat (which will be a conversion from an old carriage) and the meat van (another carriage conversion, but a 4 wheel quarrymen's one) - I'd better crack on with those!

Day Two.jpg
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The start of Day Three sees an interesting selection of wagons waiting in the sidings, with some now ready to return. These include the meat van, which I assume would have been unloaded pretty quickly, given its load. There's still no van available for the load of flour waiting to go to Penlan, so that remains "pending".

It's another high-rolling day, with the dice throwing up a 5. Today's requirements are empties for granite and timber from Penlan, plus manure for there and coal and brine for Clarach, the latter a 1/27 long shot or thereabouts - the odds change slightly as the cards are drawn.

The bogie open that took coal to Penlan is now empty and still sitting in the siding there, so that will do for the granite, even if it's only half filled - that simply moves from the "ready" list back to the "loading" one. There's only one option for the brine, and for the timber too - that will have to be the Ffestiniog bolsters, because the bogie flat's already in use. The manure will go in small open 70, and the coal in large coal wagon 12 - I'm tempted to use the other small open, which would make for a very picturesque train of only smaller vehicles, but it's more versatile than number 12, and I might need it later. All those smaller wagons are probably better virtually than in the real world, because they're not as keen on being pushed into sidings as the larger ones - I'll have to make sure my track's in good order and wheel back-to-backs are accurate!

There are five wagons for the return train, including the GPV, which will need to go back into the middle of the train, just to complicate the shunting a little.

Day Three.jpg
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So... Day Four awaits. I think I'll reserve final judgement on how it's going until I've run 10 or so virtual trains, but so far, so good, I think. I've got some niggling concerns about whether things would be lacking variety if those initial rolls of the dice had come out lower, and also whether some of the FR stock will ever get a run. We shall see - more trains tomorrow!

Hope this is vaguely interesting?!

Andrew.

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:46 pm

More than vaguely, it's fascinating!

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Re: Shunt-O-Matic System 3000/1 - 2022 edition

Post by BertieB » Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:39 pm

Not too much scope in my back garden to use System 3000 sadly (limited rolling stock and no actual destinations served) but perhaps the developers might deliver a simplified add-on — System 3000/1, Determining the most appropriate serviceable locomotive.

I’ll be wanting to link it to my website, so I can have fun with the branding and contrive an excuse to introduce pleasing robot images (I’m focusing on what’s important here).

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Re: Shuntomatic System 3000 - 2022 edition

Post by philipy » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:14 pm

Andrew wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:34 pm the first two virtual runs have necessitated the use of the two wagons I've not built yet,....- I'd better crack on with those!
No time for wagon building... too busy playing virtual trains! :lol: :lol:
Philip

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