Another Wild Rose Project

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Fri May 03, 2019 9:01 pm

Oily Rag wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:59 pm
Ian

If you have a look at the 16mm association website they have a section for downloads, then locomotives. Under that section is the wild rose drawings in PDF format. I think page 18, the steam fittings is the section I am struggling to work out how to deal that connection from the boiler to the steam chests. I have the steam chest one sussed, just that pipe that connects to it and goes off to the boiler.

No worries if you don't have time, it's just easier than me trying to explain it, lol.

Cheers
Steve
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Oily Rag » Sat May 04, 2019 9:19 am

Hi Steve,
I have had a look thorugh my books and I cannot find the chapter I was looking for. Perhaps age is confusing my memory. I can see where you are coming from with that connection. I have looked through the whole series of boiler fittings drawings that you kindly provided reference to in the hope that I could identify "intent" if you know what I mean. The drawing of the union n ut on that specific page is incomplete and it would be unusual if Dave Watkins had not provided all the information needed somewhere in the project files.

However on the first sheet of boiler fittings he does show drawings for valves and the union nut is fully dimensioned there for a start and it does state that the seal should be an O-Ring. In agreement with Graeme I dislike such an approach in that particular application, plus like Graeme I cannot find a standard O-ring that fits the bill as it should. I think that demonstrates design intent. However I think I would still go for a captive swivel nut as I suggested which means making another little brass part which is essentially a piece of brass rod turned down with a collar, slip the nut on and then hard solder (silver solder) the pipe into it. Now if you are unhappy with the the thought of trying to get two flat faces to seal then there is another little trick you can give some thought to.

Firstly standard O-Rings are something like 60 Shore hardeness which is pretty hard and requires some force to achieve the designed seal, but most of course are used in high pressure applications like hydraulics. In our terms something a little softer might be appropriate. Many water gauges in our scales do not use O-rings they actually use small collars about 2 to 2.5MM long cut from suitably sized silicone rubber tube. You would have to think about the mechanics as I have suggested above for the pipe and nut to ensure retention of the pipe but they do seal admirably and remember that is on to glass or quartz tube as well. The end fittings on water gauges do have retention as I suggested earlier for the tube to stop it shifting much and blowing out.

One other comment I would make is on the design of the valves. I would look at making the stem a little safer than suggested. The stem as designed would not come out but I like a bit of belt and braces.
Regards
Ian
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Sat May 04, 2019 11:47 am

-steves- wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:18 pm
Do you know what tool you use for flaring the ends of the steam pipe so it doesn't pull through if it uses as an O-ring I assume you don't solder it to a union of some description?
You don't flare the steam pipe, the design of joint shown relies on the friction from the compressed o-ring to stop the pipe sliding out, which I why I don't like them. In the case of the steam inlet tee on Roundhouse cylinders, once assembled the tee can't really go anywhere and I've never seen one move as both joints are at much the same pressure.

Flared fittings are used in plumbing and I've never seen any suitable for 3/32" copper tubing.

Looking at the pipe layout drawing #19, once the boiler is installed, there is very little clearance between the steam pipe and the bottom of the boiler at the front. So the pipe is blocked from popping out under pressure once the loco is fully assembled and running.

I've got a couple of the fittings described by Ian which I found in with my collection of boiler test adaptors, but I can't remember where they came from. I've also made a version with a spigot that fits into the hole in the union, which makes it easier to line things up when assembling, but couldn't find an example.

Pipe fitting-2.jpg

I've got a vague idea I made a few of this type before I worked out that a 60deg conical seat could be easily made with a centre drill and I then quickly standardised on coned pipe fittings for all steam and gas pipework. The one in the photo is 3/16" ME for 1/16" tubing, so may be a leftover from my Argyle Philadelphia loco rebuild, as that has 1/16" gas pipework.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sat May 04, 2019 2:14 pm

Oily Rag wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:19 am


One other comment I would make is on the design of the valves. I would look at making the stem a little safer than suggested. The stem as designed would not come out but I like a bit of belt and braces.
Thanks Ian, I will have a look at what I think I will be able to make to work in there. I need to remake it anyway as I have drilled it all as 3mm instead of 3/32, my bad, I assumed this was the same thing until I looked it up and found out its nearer to 2.4mm. Live and learn :thumbup:

As for the bit I have quoted, I am afraid yet again I have no idea what you mean on this, what is the stem?

Cheers
Steve
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Oily Rag » Sat May 04, 2019 2:16 pm

Hi Steve,
Very quickly the "stem" is the bit in the middle that screws down to close the valve off, normally with the cone on the end. Hope that helps but must go as I am removing patterns from rubber moulds.
Regards
Ian
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sat May 04, 2019 2:18 pm

GTB wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:47 am


Pipe fitting-2.jpg


I've got a vague idea I made a few of this type before I worked out that a 60deg conical seat could be easily made with a centre drill and I then quickly standardised on coned pipe fittings for all steam and gas pipework. The one in the photo is 3/16" ME for 1/16" tubing, so may be a leftover from my Argyle Philadelphia loco rebuild, as that has 1/16" gas pipework.

Regards,
Graeme
I like the idea of what is in the picture, but being flat to flat I am not sure how well it would seal, but at least I could hard solder that flange on and be assured of it not pulling out. I may try and put a 60 degree cone on the connection and see what happens, after all it's only a little brass and time if it doesn't work, lol :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sat May 04, 2019 2:22 pm

Oily Rag wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 2:16 pm
Hi Steve,
Very quickly the "stem" is the bit in the middle that screws down to close the valve off, normally with the cone on the end. Hope that helps but must go as I am removing patterns from rubber moulds.
Nope, still lost me I am afraid :( To me the valve is the slide valve in the steam chest which is open and closed by the eccentrics. Unless it's the bit the eccentric rod slides through into the steam chest? Sorry, total newbie to these term :(

Take your time, I am in no rush at all as I have ran out of material to do any more for a little while so it might be a few weeks before I can get things like the 1mm silver rod to join the eccentrics up etc. I do have enough brass to have a go at some of these unions and joints but as I say, absolutely no rush :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Oily Rag » Sat May 04, 2019 4:40 pm

Hi Steve,
Totally got our wires crossed I'm afraid. We were talking about the steam tee connections and you had posted the drawing plus the links as to where the drawings may be found. Looking at your drawing (page 18 in the master set) the gland nut is not fully dimensioned nor as you say is there any guidance as to the connection. It is unusual that Dave Watkins would leave out information so I looked back at the previous pages concerning boiler fittings in the master set. There are three pages and on Page 16 Boiler Fittings there are drawings of valves valves. Plus the bonus is that there is a complete drawing of the gland nut. It is fairly usual that standard bits are made as far as possible becuse we make stuff as one-offs (or few offs) it reduces the work load with the same material, tools, taps and dies etc to hand with the first one.
I wanted to see if I could ascertain some design intent by Dave and it is clear,it is noted on that page that 3/32" pipe is to be used with gland nuts of that design along with an UNSPECIFIED O-Ring. Along with Graeme I could not find a standard O-Ring to fill the bill quite properly. But by way of an aside I did notice that I would not quite make my shut off valves etc. in the same way, I would make sure belt and braces that the stem of those valves could not be unscrewed right out. Dave's design does take this into account, its just a bit of personal preference when making those things.

All that being said it is clear to me that Dave in his original design intended that joint/pipe/gland you have been struggling with should be sealed with an O-Ring. There are plenty of "specials" about but my previous remarks about hardness still apply. A couple of places to talk to and you may get some samples is O-Rings in Chichester, they used to be O-Rings of Havant some years back and there is another helpful company , the name evades me but they are in Beakes Road in Smethwick in the West Midlands.

Hope that helps a bit
Regards
Ian
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Sat May 04, 2019 5:37 pm

-steves- wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 2:22 pm
Nope, still lost me I am afraid :( To me the valve is the slide valve in the steam chest which is open and closed by the eccentrics. Unless it's the bit the eccentric rod slides through into the steam chest? Sorry, total newbie to these term :(
English is such an interesting language, especially the engineering version....... :shock:

The type of valves Ian is talking about are the two versions of the gas control valve and the regulator valve. The stem is the bit labelled 'spindle' on the drawings.

As designed it is possible to screw the stem right out of the gas valve body, as the upper part of the stem is the same dia as the threaded part. If the gas tank is full, the pressure will push the stem through the gland as soon as the thread disengages. Frostbite on the finger tips from the escaping gas might be the least of your worries if there is an ignition source in the vicinity.

To prevent the stem of a valve being easily removed it is usual to reduce the diameter of the stem above the threaded part and reduce the size of the hole in the gland nut to match. The gland nut and the stem thread are different in pitch already and will lock if turned at the same time, so with the reduction in stem dia., the only way to remove the stem is to remove the gland nut first.

In case you are wondering, the gland is the seal around the stem that stops anything leaking out of the valve past the stem thread. In the gas valves it's a piece of teflon tape, or silicone tube, wrapped around the stem and compressed by the nut. In the regulator it's meant to be an o-ring.

If you look at the regulator drawing (which is technically a needle valve like the gas valves) on sheet 16, you will see that it is drawn this way and the stem can't be screwed out without removing the gland nut. The upper part of the stem is 2.2mm dia, but the thread on the stem is 6BA (2.7mm) and there is a 2.3mm hole in the 3/16" x 40 ME gland nut. So the regulator valve stem won't come right out if a driver turns it too far for some reason.

I see the gas and regulator valve stems call up stainless steel. I which case you will need HSS dies to cut the threads. Carbon steel dies will go blunt very quickly when threading stainless. There's no reason why the valves should have different threads either. M3 and 6BA are equivalent, just pick one and save the cost of a die.......


Returning to the pipe fittings, you are right, the flat seats are harder to seal. Which is why I always use coned fittings now.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 29, 2019 3:27 pm

Been a bit quiet on this as I got a tad disheartened with it as when I tried to run it on air a few weeks ago I failed miserably. I tried to time it etc etc etc many times with no success. Kinda gave up for a while and left it on a back burner, but also to be fair, there has been a ton of other things on recently including many a BBQ and a small open day for family and a couple of friends, days out here and there.

Well, today I tried again, it still isn't right, far from it, however a small step forwards as it eventually ran air. I would suggest turning the sound off as the compressor is very noisy, however if you like loud noises and decide to leave the sound on, you may also hear a clunking noise coming from the engine, not sure what this is as yet but I have not sat down and looked yet either. I had it all running as smooth as silk at one point this morning, but since putting it back together it has a few tight spots again, arghhh! Still smiling though as it's so amazing to see something you have cobbled together out of blocks of metal suddenly spring into some sort of life and take flight, well sort of, it turned the wheels :lol: :thumbup:

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by FWLR » Thu May 30, 2019 8:05 am

It sounds and looks ok to me Steve...But then again I haven't got my earphones in at the moment... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Could you fit an air supply direct to it. You could then hear it better and it may round smoother. It may not, but no harm in trying is there.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Thu May 30, 2019 10:50 am

-steves- wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 3:27 pm
you may also hear a clunking noise coming from the engine, not sure what this is as yet but I have not sat down and looked yet either. I had it all running as smooth as silk at one point this morning, but since putting it back together it has a few tight spots again,
I've found it pays to walk away if things aren't going right. While you mull it over in the back of your mind, eventually the answer comes to you........

Well done, you must have made the parts properly, or it would never have worked. If it has run well once, then it can be made to run again. ;)

Does the chassis turn over smoothly by hand when not connected to the compressor? If not, you may have reversed a wheelset, or swapped rods when reassembling things. It shouldn't make a difference, but sometimes the tolerances add up the wrong way and some parts have only one orientation where everything works smoothly.

If the wheels and rods aren't binding, then it may be the valve timing that is out. With these little locos, the valves should be set line for line. Unlike larger scale and full size locos, any advance will make them run lumpy, as they don't have the weight and therefore momentum to compress the steam (or air) if the valve opens early, before the crankpin is at dead centre.

Also check that the piston rods are pushed into the crossheads far enough and aren't hitting a cylinder end cover. Been there.....

I've never built a slip eccentric loco, but FWIW my valve setting procedure should work.

- Centre the slide valve first, by adjusting the valve position on the valve rod so the valve openings are the same at each end, in both forward and reverse, or as near as you can get them. At this point it doesn't matter exactly where the eccentric is set.

- Only adjust the timing by adjusting the eccentric (or the stop collar in the case of slip eccentrics) once the valve has been centred. The valve should be just starting to open as the crankpin is at dead centre at both ends of the piston stroke.

- Once one side is timed, then repeat on the other side.

I use oiled brown paper gaskets for steam chest joints, as the gaskets don't have to be replaced each time the valve chest is opened while setting up valve gear.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Thu May 30, 2019 2:19 pm

GTB wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:50 am

I've found it pays to walk away if things aren't going right. While you mull it over in the back of your mind, eventually the answer comes to you........

Well done, you must have made the parts properly, or it would never have worked. If it has run well once, then it can be made to run again. ;)

Does the chassis turn over smoothly by hand when not connected to the compressor? If not, you may have reversed a wheelset, or swapped rods when reassembling things. It shouldn't make a difference, but sometimes the tolerances add up the wrong way and some parts have only one orientation where everything works smoothly.

If the wheels and rods aren't binding, then it may be the valve timing that is out. With these little locos, the valves should be set line for line. Unlike larger scale and full size locos, any advance will make them run lumpy, as they don't have the weight and therefore momentum to compress the steam (or air) if the valve opens early, before the crankpin is at dead centre.

Also check that the piston rods are pushed into the crossheads far enough and aren't hitting a cylinder end cover. Been there.....

I've never built a slip eccentric loco, but FWIW my valve setting procedure should work.

- Centre the slide valve first, by adjusting the valve position on the valve rod so the valve openings are the same at each end, in both forward and reverse, or as near as you can get them. At this point it doesn't matter exactly where the eccentric is set.

- Only adjust the timing by adjusting the eccentric (or the stop collar in the case of slip eccentrics) once the valve has been centred. The valve should be just starting to open as the crankpin is at dead centre at both ends of the piston stroke.

- Once one side is timed, then repeat on the other side.

I use oiled brown paper gaskets for steam chest joints, as the gaskets don't have to be replaced each time the valve chest is opened while setting up valve gear.

Regards,
Graeme
Hi Graeme

That's exactly why I put it down and gave it some time. Generally on this sort of thing I sit and think about it (over days / weeks months) and then suddenly ways of fixing the problem just seem to enter my head as does the incentive to carry on with the task.

Something is binding, not sure what. All the parts have gone on the same way as they are all marked, I learnt that early on. However, the timing could be a definite issue as all I did was move the stop collars until it actually ran. I will have a look at some point once the enthusiasm jumps back into life. I do think one of the pistons is hitting one of the cylinder ends by the sounds of things, I know it was a major issue at one point but I thought I had rectified that bit a while back.

Never thought if using gaskets, nice idea.

I think once I get some O rings into all the right places that might help too? Still need to buy those as yet hence it running without them for now.

The timing guide will be very helpful and that is what I will use next time I have it all apart :)
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Thu May 30, 2019 2:21 pm

FWLR wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 8:05 am
It sounds and looks ok to me Steve...But then again I haven't got my earphones in at the moment... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Could you fit an air supply direct to it. You could then hear it better and it may round smoother. It may not, but no harm in trying is there.
Thanks Rod

I did make an adaptor for my small spraying compressor yesterday but it could only get 10 psi and it wasn't enough to spin the little loco over. I think this is down to the lack of O rings which I need to purchase at some point.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Thu May 30, 2019 5:16 pm

-steves- wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 2:19 pm
I think once I get some O rings into all the right places that might help too? Still need to buy those as yet hence it running without them for now.
I'm surprised it runs at all without piston rings......... :shock:

There will be major air leaks until the piston rings, glands and gaskets are all fitted, which is why your airbrush compressor ran out of puff. I wind teflon tape around the valve/piston rods and tighten the gland nut to pack it down, as I find the teflon has less drag on the rods than using o-rings in the glands. The loco I'm currently.building turns over at 5 psi on air, now I've got the timing right.

I only used liquid gaskets when I first started out, 'Form-a-Gasket' at first, then 'Loctite 515', but after a while changed to paper gaskets for steam chests. I got tired of cleaning old gasket material off and applying more every time I had to reset the valves.

I can buy my o-rings locally, as there are a couple of bearing suppliers in an industrial area about 10 mins away.

Regards,
Graeme

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