Another Wild Rose Project

What is your latest project?
User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 5:14 pm

A little time in the workshop today and a little over the last couple of days.

Pretty much got most of the motion stuff made, other than the few bits that I mentioned before that I have ordered, but will still attempt to build them just for practice when they arrive.

This picture shows most of one side of the cylinders, cross head, steam chest and today I even started on the steam unions. I do have a question there though as I have no clue how the steam pipes are supposed to connect. I have made part of the steam tee and will sliver solder it together as and when I get some 3/32 steam pipe. But, there will be an ME thread poking up, waiting for a union to go on it, what stops that pipe pushing out, is it somehow flared over? Is there a special kit for that? I have one to do brake pipes, but is there a special one for 3/32 and as I have no countersink what stops the steam just escaping? See loads of badly phrased questions that no one will have a clue over, lol.

Oh the picture, ignore the black pen, it's just for reference to get things on the same way they came off :)

Image
Last edited by -steves- on Wed May 01, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 5:20 pm

As this post covers pretty much everything in the world, I thought I would post these pictures up in here as well. The purpose as I said from day one was to always build a live steam loco from scratch. I have the following "kit" bits in the photos in the shed in a box and the intent "one day" is to have a go at building it. I figured I would start with 16mm as that's my garden railway and would be more useful

The box might be a little bigger than it looks?

Image

To put it in scale better...

Image

Image

Image

The box again

Image
Last edited by -steves- on Wed May 01, 2019 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 pm

ytrhgf
Last edited by -steves- on Wed May 01, 2019 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 7:58 pm

Oily Rag wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 7:35 pm
That sounds a nice project to have on the back burner Steve. "JULIETs" are well thought of in the l;arger scale field. Was it not one of LBSC's designs? I am not sure.
Good to know they are well thought of. Yes that's the one, LBCS, I couldn't remember earlier :)
Oily Rag wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 7:35 pm
As the 25 quid. That was what my pal said it owed him. He had bid for those boxes of bits, some old Mamods and the like and those parts for the MINNIE just happend to be in the bottom of one of the boxes. A great find both for him and me. There have been many MINNIEs made and there is now even a set of drawings on the 'net for a metric version.

Some of the castings I have, have been badly machined but won't be too bad to hack out of solid. Its one of things like a good book, I can pick it up and put it down without any pressure as the mood takes. Really my next move with it is to make a jig suggested in the book to spoke up the wheels. I do want to change the design of the jig a bit to suit my methods of working but all will come out of scrap, offcut bits and a piece of 3/4" ply left over from topping out the workbenches.We too have had harder times financially so often making things was the only option. You know its fun! Really.And now I want to make everything, have a better garden (for the railway of course ahem) but that is not completely possible so my time is fuller than ever.
I am sure you will rectify and remake any parts necessary :)

I too am in the process of doing the garden, I learnt to mix and lay concrete the other day, another skill added to the set, lol :lol:
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
dewintondave
Fireman
Fireman
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:52 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Thu May 02, 2019 8:11 am

I think it's important to keep using the saws and files, otherwise the skills will drop off. I made a gas valve for an engine, lovely fine thread and fine taper, it was just like making a regulator. It's fitted to the 220g gas cylinder adaptor, I bought the hand wheel though :D
Best wishes,
Dave

User avatar
FWLR
Driver
Driver
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 am
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by FWLR » Thu May 02, 2019 9:36 am

dewintondave wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:11 am
I think it's important to keep using the saws and files, otherwise the skills will drop off. I made a gas valve for an engine, lovely fine thread and fine taper, it was just like making a regulator. It's fitted to the 220g gas cylinder adaptor, I bought the hand wheel though :D
I agree Dave... :thumbright:

This thread is brilliant and the use of hand tools really does show off people skills, especially yours Steve.. :thumbright: :thumbright:

The use of laser cut parts and CNC machining are very good especially if there is a long run to be done. I used to be CNC setter and operator and you just can't beat them for being accurate, but remember they are doing the work. Not a person, so when you hold something that has been made by someone rather than a machine, they do feel different. In my mind anyway.... :)
Rod

Life is so easy when I run my trains. :thumbright:

🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃

https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... 41&t=11364

User avatar
GTB
Driver
Driver
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:46 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Thu May 02, 2019 3:19 pm

-steves- wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:14 pm
This picture shows most of one side of the cylinders, cross head, steam chest and today I even started on the steam unions. I do have a question there though as I have no clue how the steam pipes are supposed to connect.
The cylinder assembly looks good.

I often scratch a 'L' or an 'R' on parts that aren't obviously handed and when disassembling, put related bits in small labelled containers to keep them together. I also sometimes scratch a little arrow in an out of the way place to indicate the front when re-assembling.

Just had a look at the Wild Rose III drawings, looks like Dave Watkins assumed that builders would use commercial pipe fittings. The pipework G/A on drawing 19 shows the assembled fittings and the gas pipework drawing 21 shows the tails fitted on the piping, but I couldn't find dimensioned drawings.

I make my own, which is easy enough when you get set up for it.

The photo shows some bits for a 1/8" pipe fitting, which were all I could find. They may be commercial, as my supply of spares is in a 'safe' place somewhere. :roll: I make fittings with 1/4" x 40 ME nuts for 1/8" tube and 3/16" nuts for 3/32" and 1/16" tube and always make a couple extra in case I lose one under the bench.

Pipe fitting.jpg

I can't find my sketch cards either, so can't give you dimensions for a 3/32" pipe fitting.

The part on the left is designed to be silver soldered to the end of a pipe, so is a single union. The coned seat is drilled with a centre drill (slocombe drill) which gives the 60deg coned shape. Being an 1/8" fitting it is drilled 1/8" at the back, stopping short of the cone, so the fitting stays in the right place while silver soldering.

The 60deg cone on the tail is formed by laying the lathe topslide over at 30deg. Again drilled at 1/8" up to the cone, then through drilled at 3/32" so it stays in place when silver soldering. The body is turned down to clear the thread in the nut and the end is turned down further to provide the shoulder for the nut to engage when tightened.

The nut is threaded and then drilled to clear the end of the tail. There needs to be at least 1mm between the end of the thread and the back of the nut when it is parted off, or the olive will break through when the nut is tightened.

The parts for 3/32' are similar, just the thread is 3/16" x 40 ME and everything is proportionately smaller. I don't use 1/16" pipework much, but the fittings are the same as the 3/32" ones, except the tails are drilled 1/16" for soldering to the pipework.

Mine are copied from the 1/8" fittings that Roundhouse sell, but I don't think they use any 3/32" pipework. I can get single and double unions, tails and nuts down to 3/32" locally, so they will be available from ME suppliers in the UK. There are other designs around, but the coned tails seal more easily in my experience.

Regards,
Graeme

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Fri May 03, 2019 2:21 pm

GTB wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:19 pm


Pipe fitting.jpg



Regards,
Graeme
Hi Graeme

That's just what I was looking for.

This concerns me that the Wild Rose build sheets do not show a cone inside the bit that solders to the steam chests as I am not sure how you are supposed to seal that connection. I have started on the part on the last picture (shown in red), but just can't see how that is going to seal properly on the union suggested?? Any thoughts anyone?

Also I have had some time doing workshop stuff today which I firmly believe will assist dramatically in the project and other projects going forwards.

A DRO system for my mill, as I said before I fitted one to the Z axis to try out, it was that good I bought and fitted the other two axis today.




My original home build DRO built from a digital tyre depth gauge, a turned bit of brass, a couple of pen springs, a couple of washers, some magnets and some epoxy, but only good for about 25mm movement and as pain to see.

Image



My new DRO system, all working great, so easy to read and set. Should prove useful going forwards. The bracket to hold them is a strip of ali, drilled and tapped to 3mm and bolted onto the motor mount from the belt conversion I put on the other month.

Image

Image

Image



Last but not least, I am now set for learning to use a piercing saw, gave it a go on some steel sheet and brass sheet, sticks a bit in the brass and eventually broke the blade, good job I bought another 24 blades with it as I can see me going through them at a bit of a rate. Produces a very fine accurate cut, so I am a happy bunny, thanks guys :thumbup:

Image
Attachments
steamfitttings1.jpg
Last edited by -steves- on Fri May 03, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Fri May 03, 2019 2:36 pm

FWLR wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:36 am
dewintondave wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:11 am
I think it's important to keep using the saws and files, otherwise the skills will drop off. I made a gas valve for an engine, lovely fine thread and fine taper, it was just like making a regulator. It's fitted to the 220g gas cylinder adaptor, I bought the hand wheel though :D
I agree Dave... :thumbright:

This thread is brilliant and the use of hand tools really does show off people skills, especially yours Steve.. :thumbright: :thumbright:

The use of laser cut parts and CNC machining are very good especially if there is a long run to be done. I used to be CNC setter and operator and you just can't beat them for being accurate, but remember they are doing the work. Not a person, so when you hold something that has been made by someone rather than a machine, they do feel different. In my mind anyway.... :)
Thanks for the compliment but I think the skills lay with others and I am merely "grasshopper", the student in training, lol ;) Of course I try my best but sometimes the results end up in the bin, other times, well, they might pass, the time will tell when it comes to try to "fire it" up on air. With all the "bodges" and extra fettling I am doing I am not holding my breath. That said, they say the Wild Rose is good for a beginner, but I am thinking I would have been better off starting with an oscillator type engine like Brick or Idris, but hey, I guess that's just me, jump in the deep end and and give it a go :thumbup:
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
GTB
Driver
Driver
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:46 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Fri May 03, 2019 4:36 pm

-steves- wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 2:21 pm
I have started on the part on the last picture (shown in red), but just can't see how that is going to seal properly on the union suggested?? Any thoughts anyone?
Looks like it might be designed to seal with an o-ring, like the steam inlet tee on Roundhouse cylinders. (A fitting I dislike intensely.....)

If so, I'm not sure what size O-ring is intended to be used, as there's nothing on the drawing. A BS003 o-ring won't fit into a 3/16" ME nut which has a thread minor dia. of 5/32". By the time a BS003 o-ring is fitted over a 3/32" tube the od will about 7/32".

The only o-ring I have that might work with the fittings as drawn is a metric 4mm x 1mm size. With metric o-rings the first number is the od and the second one is the cross section and that's how you order them around here. In this case the hole in the doughnut works out to be 2mm dia., so it will be a tight fit with a 3/32" pipe in a 3/16" ME fitting and may take a fight to get into place.

I don't use o-rings for much except piston rings, gas valve glands and gauge glasses, so Ian or another builder may have a better suggestion.

Regards,
Graeme

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Fri May 03, 2019 5:18 pm

GTB wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:36 pm
-steves- wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 2:21 pm
I have started on the part on the last picture (shown in red), but just can't see how that is going to seal properly on the union suggested?? Any thoughts anyone?
Looks like it might be designed to seal with an o-ring, like the steam inlet tee on Roundhouse cylinders. (A fitting I dislike intensely.....)

If so, I'm not sure what size O-ring is intended to be used, as there's nothing on the drawing. A BS003 o-ring won't fit into a 3/16" ME nut which has a thread minor dia. of 5/32". By the time a BS003 o-ring is fitted over a 3/32" tube the od will about 7/32".

The only o-ring I have that might work with the fittings as drawn is a metric 4mm x 1mm size. With metric o-rings the first number is the od and the second one is the cross section and that's how you order them around here. In this case the hole in the doughnut works out to be 2mm dia., so it will be a tight fit with a 3/32" pipe in a 3/16" ME fitting and may take a fight to get into place.

I don't use o-rings for much except piston rings, gas valve glands and gauge glasses, so Ian or another builder may have a better suggestion.

Regards,
Graeme
Thanks Graeme

Do you know what tool you use for flaring the ends of the steam pipe so it doesn't pull through if it uses as an O-ring I assume you don't solder it to a union of some description?

Can anyone shed any light on this issue on the Wild Rose? The steam connectors seem a little confusing to me :(
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Fri May 03, 2019 9:01 pm

Oily Rag wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:59 pm
Ian

If you have a look at the 16mm association website they have a section for downloads, then locomotives. Under that section is the wild rose drawings in PDF format. I think page 18, the steam fittings is the section I am struggling to work out how to deal that connection from the boiler to the steam chests. I have the steam chest one sussed, just that pipe that connects to it and goes off to the boiler.

No worries if you don't have time, it's just easier than me trying to explain it, lol.

Cheers
Steve
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
GTB
Driver
Driver
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:46 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Sat May 04, 2019 11:47 am

-steves- wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:18 pm
Do you know what tool you use for flaring the ends of the steam pipe so it doesn't pull through if it uses as an O-ring I assume you don't solder it to a union of some description?
You don't flare the steam pipe, the design of joint shown relies on the friction from the compressed o-ring to stop the pipe sliding out, which I why I don't like them. In the case of the steam inlet tee on Roundhouse cylinders, once assembled the tee can't really go anywhere and I've never seen one move as both joints are at much the same pressure.

Flared fittings are used in plumbing and I've never seen any suitable for 3/32" copper tubing.

Looking at the pipe layout drawing #19, once the boiler is installed, there is very little clearance between the steam pipe and the bottom of the boiler at the front. So the pipe is blocked from popping out under pressure once the loco is fully assembled and running.

I've got a couple of the fittings described by Ian which I found in with my collection of boiler test adaptors, but I can't remember where they came from. I've also made a version with a spigot that fits into the hole in the union, which makes it easier to line things up when assembling, but couldn't find an example.

Pipe fitting-2.jpg

I've got a vague idea I made a few of this type before I worked out that a 60deg conical seat could be easily made with a centre drill and I then quickly standardised on coned pipe fittings for all steam and gas pipework. The one in the photo is 3/16" ME for 1/16" tubing, so may be a leftover from my Argyle Philadelphia loco rebuild, as that has 1/16" gas pipework.

Regards,
Graeme

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sat May 04, 2019 2:14 pm

Oily Rag wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:19 am


One other comment I would make is on the design of the valves. I would look at making the stem a little safer than suggested. The stem as designed would not come out but I like a bit of belt and braces.
Thanks Ian, I will have a look at what I think I will be able to make to work in there. I need to remake it anyway as I have drilled it all as 3mm instead of 3/32, my bad, I assumed this was the same thing until I looked it up and found out its nearer to 2.4mm. Live and learn :thumbup:

As for the bit I have quoted, I am afraid yet again I have no idea what you mean on this, what is the stem?

Cheers
Steve
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

User avatar
-steves-
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Location: Cambridge & Peterborough

Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sat May 04, 2019 2:18 pm

GTB wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:47 am


Pipe fitting-2.jpg


I've got a vague idea I made a few of this type before I worked out that a 60deg conical seat could be easily made with a centre drill and I then quickly standardised on coned pipe fittings for all steam and gas pipework. The one in the photo is 3/16" ME for 1/16" tubing, so may be a leftover from my Argyle Philadelphia loco rebuild, as that has 1/16" gas pipework.

Regards,
Graeme
I like the idea of what is in the picture, but being flat to flat I am not sure how well it would seal, but at least I could hard solder that flange on and be assured of it not pulling out. I may try and put a 60 degree cone on the connection and see what happens, after all it's only a little brass and time if it doesn't work, lol :thumbup:
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests