Another Wild Rose Project

What is your latest project?
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Oily Rag
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Oily Rag » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:18 pm

Hi Steve,
As promised here are some pics to help. However I note that you are struggling with scribed lines and using a fine line marker or similar. Graeme is correct in that this is likely to cause you some inaccuracy. Traditionally when marking anyhting out the surface was/is coated with blue "Layout Ink". This is an alcohol based mixture in which the fluid evaporates quickly leaving a blue coating on the surface through which you scribe your very fine line. I have never liked the stuff even when in work as I always think it is too pale. You have to leave it to dry anyway even a little while after the fluid has gone. Now I can do as I please I actually use one of those jumbo black permanent marker pens to coat the metal, it takes seconds to cure and is relatively durable. Then you can scribe a very fine but very shiny line with a sharp scriber. It also reduces imperfections in the metal surface that we all do saving work later during finishing of the component. Once made just clean the component off with a little Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA) or acetone. Job done.

Now I have attached some pics of the "VEE" table including one clamped in the bench vice. This one is made from a scrap of 1/2" thick MDF, it was to hand. No matter how hard you try you do end up making a mess of them. They are simple enough to knock up when one has gone pasts sell by date. The block by the way is an offcut of roofing batten from the workshop insulation days.

Finally a pic of my own piercing saw. You can see the differnce in tensioning the blade from a fretsaw. Its all a matter of personal choice really and your own technique but my method is to slacken of the frame locking screw, set up the blade square to its mounts and clamp it firmly on the blank (no teeth) ends. Then hold the wooden handle with four fingers of the left hand, stretch the left thumb across to the frame end and push a little tension on the blade by the frame sliding through the handle end of fixed frame. On mine and I think all of them, the top end then dips a little towards the blade side. Holding this position then tighten the frame clamping screw. This pulls the frame back square and applies enough tension to the blade for the way I work.

I hope that this helps but you will find your own way of working.
Regards
Ian
Dirranbandi & Toowoomba Light Railway

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Oily Rag » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:22 pm

Sorry Graeme, you had already covered most of the ground and I didn't check, but I think we are all singing off the same hymn sheet as they say.
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Ian
Dirranbandi & Toowoomba Light Railway

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:11 pm

Oily Rag wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:22 pm
Ian
GTB wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:13 pm
Graeme
I thought I would quote both your names to save quoting entire posts.

I would like to thank you both for all of this, some very helpful ways to do things and most definitely the way I will be doing my marking and cutting as soon as funds allow to buy the saw and blades. No problem knocking up something to go in the vice, but I might have to move my vice as it's already really on the wrong side for me and this won't help matters. Food for thought as I have a VERY small workshop and space is extremely limited.

They were both very in depth, simple to follow (even I managed), very informative posts and I am pretty sure I will not be the only one from this forum making the most of both of you sharing your skills on here. I am not sure a simple thank you really covers how I feel, but unfortunately it's all I have, so a big, massive thank you to you both. :thumbleft: :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:47 pm

This thread deserves to be a sticky, it is done!

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Oily Rag » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:52 pm

Its no problem Tom and Steve. Your kind comments are appreciated but I am sure that Graeme feels much the same. Its a privilege to try and pass on some of the skills I have learned, often the hard way over the years. We are in peril of losing all these skills altogether with many missing out on the sheer pleasure and satisfaction of making something and getting it to work. Someone has to know how to sink the dies of the injection moulding tools that make the parts for our mobile phones and someone has to design and make the high vacuum equipment to implement the plasma physics processes that produce the silicon chips running our computers.
Rant over! :D
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Ian
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:53 pm

I wished I live near people that could show me hands on skills like these so this is the next best thing...

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Busted Bricks » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:22 pm

Cutting sheet metal is a job for a laser! Cutting time on a frame for a 16mm scale loco is measured in seconds.

Of course very few hobbyists have a metal cutting laser but you have Model Engineers Laser in UK that offers cutting at reasonable prices. I can probably do it much cheaper but then there is postage and potentially duty to pay (after UK leaves EU).

The frame part for a Cracker loco pictured below will take app. 10 seconds to cut from 1.5mm mild steel. I know the estimation says 12.5 seconds but for some reason it is always a bit over actual cutting time.
cracker laser.png

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:48 pm

Postage wipes out the cost save.

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Wed May 01, 2019 9:14 am

Those are excellent posts lads. Very informative :thumbup:
Best wishes,
Dave

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 11:00 am

tom_tom_go wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:53 pm
I wished I live near people that could show me hands on skills like these so this is the next best thing...
I completely echo this, it's so much easier to learn from someone showing you something directly and it would be a privilege to have such skills to hand to learn all these things and more. We are lucky on here to have such skilled people willing to share their skills and experience. Unfortunately there is a distant lack of engineering people around this area, if I wanted someone to teach me how to do a lecture on boimechanical neutron partical theory, then I could line them up down the road, that's Cambridge for you! :lol:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Wed May 01, 2019 11:49 am

Busted Bricks wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:22 pm
Cutting sheet metal is a job for a laser! Cutting time on a frame for a 16mm scale loco is measured in seconds.
You're kind of missing the meaning of the words 'retirement hobby'.......

Yes, if I was making models commercially, I'd have spent the time to learn CAD and I'd be using subcontractors for laser cutting, chemical etching, CNC and the rest of the alphabet soup of modern techniques, as I'd need to build at least a couple of models a week to make a living.

However, I'm retired, don't need to supplement my income and have the time to treat making little steam locos as a craft. It doesn't matter if it takes me 6 months to build a small loco, it keeps me amused and off the streets.......

As well as that, there's a much greater sense of accomplishment from making a working machine with my hands and basic tools. Rather than sitting on my bum in front of a computer, then pressing a button and waiting for parts to drop into the letterbox.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Busted Bricks » Wed May 01, 2019 12:33 pm

GTB wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:49 am
Busted Bricks wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:22 pm
Cutting sheet metal is a job for a laser! Cutting time on a frame for a 16mm scale loco is measured in seconds.
You're kind of missing the meaning of the words 'retirement hobby'.......
Not really - even people with lots of time on their hands might find certain tasks tedious or difficult and if they need to buy in new tools there may not be any saving. In my hobbies there are certain things I make myself and there are things I buy in. Does anyone make their own gas valves for instance? I'm also pretty sure there are members of this forum who are not yet retired and my original response was not aimed at you directly.

I merely wanted to point out that you have a good, affordable supplier of laser cut parts in UK should you wish to use such a service. IIRC, OP actually started off with some laser cut frame parts. I also know some retired people that enjoy CAD work as part of the hobby. Horses for courses really.

With regards to skill sharing, I think many of us are in a situation where we don't know anyone locally who can show us the ropes. Luckily we have Youtube - there is nearly always several "how to" videos to be found of any given topic that you want to learn more about. Of course it wold be nice to be able to sit down with someone over a cuppa it's just not always possible.

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Wed May 01, 2019 3:45 pm

Busted Bricks wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:33 pm
Does anyone make their own gas valves for instance?
Depends on what you mean by gas valve. I often make my own gas control valves and a lot of published 16mm designs include the gas control valve.

The only things I never make on a model are gas filler valves, gas jets and pressure gauges.

Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Oily Rag » Wed May 01, 2019 4:31 pm

Busted Bricks wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:33 pm
GTB wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:49 am
Busted Bricks wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:22 pm
Cutting sheet metal is a job for a laser! Cutting time on a frame for a 16mm scale loco is measured in seconds.
You're kind of missing the meaning of the words 'retirement hobby'.......
Not really - even people with lots of time on their hands might find certain tasks tedious or difficult and if they need to buy in new tools there may not be any saving. In my hobbies there are certain things I make myself and there are things I buy in. Does anyone make their own gas valves for instance? I'm also pretty sure there are members of this forum who are not yet retired and my original response was not aimed at you directly.

I merely wanted to point out that you have a good, affordable supplier of laser cut parts in UK should you wish to use such a service. IIRC, OP actually started off with some laser cut frame parts. I also know some retired people that enjoy CAD work as part of the hobby. Horses for courses really.

With regards to skill sharing, I think many of us are in a situation where we don't know anyone locally who can show us the ropes. Luckily we have Youtube - there is nearly always several "how to" videos to be found of any given topic that you want to learn more about. Of course it wold be nice to be able to sit down with someone over a cuppa it's just not always possible.
Sadly I think as Graeme rightly says the point is being missed somewhat. Firstly I put together a design for a locomotive and laid in hand parts for a run of 20 complete finished locos not so many years ago now in 7/8ths when there was NOTHING around. Much is being made of laser cutting and so called "modern" techniques. I would like to point out that laser cutters particularly those claiming a model engineering bias arrogantly but erroneously knew more about my product than I did. One in particular wanted to charge a fortune to "redraw" all of my drawings and then sub contract the work out elsewhere claiming it was his. I am no slouch when it comes to CAD being an advanced surfacing user of CATIA the industry standard for aerospace, automotive and high technology industries besides a number of other other systems to a lesser degree including Solidworks, SDRC Ideas, Lockheed CADAM and so forth. The costs from one of those were astronmomical and a pair of side frames were more than the selling price of 5 locomotives. The setting/programming time for CNC parts precluded the use of that avenue and I set up with an old fashioned (to some) capstan and bashed out the machined parts all within tolerance to drawing myself single handedly in a shorter time than the modernists had quoted and a hell of a lot cheaper. Yes like many others I have spent a lifetime in engineering at all levels from the tools to Chief Engineer in the most advanced company in its field in its day (1980's) in the UK.

To reinforce what I say, why is it almost impossible to obtian a smamler size flypress these days, Size 0 or Size 1. Reason they are environmentally sound, tooling is simple and they turn out parts faster, cheaper and better than most modern techniques in the hands of practised operators.

It has always been the edict with CAD/CAM and the like that CAD certainly does NOT make anyone a better designer or engineer, it is merely a tool to ease the way a bit. This is a hobby and the development of skills, pleasure and satisfaction away from the pressures of modern life is the very raison d'etre for what we do. If it is not then perhaps we should descend to the levels of the 4mm "modeller" and just buy everything like Hornby buildings and Bachman stock, buy Preiser figures and plonk it all down on a piece of plywood and claim it as our own work. Just walk around any standard model railway exhibition.

If anyone is prepared to make the effort to make something and try then I am happy to share my skills and support where I am able. Gardening ( a non high tech skill) is being prescribed medically to improve mental and physical health well being increasingly. Should we just dump all that and just employ professional horticulturists just to get rid of the effort? We all possess the most powerful computer on the planet! It lies between our ears. Its merely the use to which it is put and learning hand skills, and often derided "outdated" knowledge is fundamental not only to our hobby (if it is to remain a hobby and a not a cheque book size pecking order) but to our own well being.
Regards
Ian
Dirranbandi & Toowoomba Light Railway

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Oily Rag » Wed May 01, 2019 4:43 pm

GTB wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:45 pm
Busted Bricks wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 12:33 pm
Does anyone make their own gas valves for instance?
Depends on what you mean by gas valve. I often make my own gas control valves and a lot of published 16mm designs include the gas control valve.

The only things I never make on a model are gas filler valves, gas jets and pressure gauges.

Graeme
I agree entirely. But making gas filler valves is not out of the question either. There are ways, its just that we have all got into the habit of using the Ronson type valve. I know of only one bulk outlet in the UK or pay outrageously. I was asked by a well known company to reverse engineer one. I did. The tooling is not major but not viable for hobby use but fillers can be made with screw down valves, all the principles of using the vapour pressure of the gas apply. Yep I've tried my own gas jets, not with huge success but given time it is not impossible with a sensitive tailstock drill holder all easily homemade. Pressure gauges I don't tackle at all. And if gas jets become a problem anyway there are inumerable sizes of ceramic watch "jewels" available cheaply and in bulk if you are so inclined at very reasonable cost. Hence you can tailor your burner exactly to your requirements if you wish.
Regards
Ian
Dirranbandi & Toowoomba Light Railway

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