Another Wild Rose Project

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:29 am

Very good Steve. You'll get a feel for how much force a 10BA tap can take.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:26 am

dewintondave wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:29 am Very good Steve. You'll get a feel for how much force a 10BA tap can take.
I knew I was on the limits as it started that "squeak" that you get in brass as it starts to bottom out, I just thought I had about a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn left, I was wrong, lol.

Dave, what is the strength difference between a carbon steel tap and a HSS tap? Seems to be quite a price difference so would it help prevent this kind of thing?
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by FWLR » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:58 am

-steves- wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:26 am
dewintondave wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:29 am Very good Steve. You'll get a feel for how much force a 10BA tap can take.
I knew I was on the limits as it started that "squeak" that you get in brass as it starts to bottom out, I just thought I had about a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn left, I was wrong, lol.

Dave, what is the strength difference between a carbon steel tap and a HSS tap? Seems to be quite a price difference so would it help prevent this kind of thing?
Good job Steve, lots done. You are experiencing what most of us have done....Just that little bit more will do it. :roll: :roll:

You will find Steve, that carbon steel is the much older material that was used for machining and especially taps. High Speed Steel (HSS) is that it can withstand higher temperatures without losing its temper (hardness).

Keep with it Steve, your'e doing a great job and it's all a learning curve. Don't get disheartened with mishaps, let them inspire you to be an engineer that is proud of his/her work. Remember Steve, you don't need qualifications to be regarded has someone who can do the job.

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:17 am

I always buy carbon steel Steve, it's good for what we do. I jumped scales so I could wave goodbye to 10 BA :D
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Dave

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:55 pm

-steves- wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:40 pm OK, bit of a learning curve today and some lessons were taken away from my time in the workshop.
Einstein is supposed to have said 'A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new'. The model engineering equivalent is probably the box of scrap parts we all accumulate over time. Welcome to the club.......


I usually use carbon steel BA taps for both brass and steel, as much as anything, it's hard to find HSS ones locally. Both types will break if given too much side load, or are overtorqued, as any steel hard enough to be used as a cutting tool is also brittle.

How are you using your taps?

One of the first things I made on the then new lathe was the little tailstock tap holder that is described by Brian Wilson in his book 'Steam Trains in Your Garden' at the start of Chapter 1. The same section of the book has a few paras. on tapping holes and threading parts that contains useful information. Brian is as averse to breaking taps as I am.....

I use the tap holder for tapping all my 10BA and 8BA threaded holes in both brass and steel. The tailstock die holder I made from the same drawing also gets a lot of use. The tap holder works in any chuck, so I use it in the bench drill and/or mill as well, for tapping blocks, sheet metal, etc. Being small it is difficult to apply too much force and it gives you a more sensitive feel for how the tap is cutting. Also important is that it keeps the tap running straight with little risk of bending and snapping it.

I only use conventional tap and die holders for larger threads such as pipe fittings, boiler bushes, etc. I try to only thread components in the mill or the lathe where I can use a plunger tapping guide to keep everything in line.

The other thing I always use is a cutting fluid, in brass and especially in steel. I think I've used about 5ml in the last 8 years, you don't need much.

It's courting fate I know, but I can honestly say I've only broken three small taps (one was a 10BA) in the last 8 years since I changed scale. I use a lot of 10BA screws in my models and the 10BA tap had probably threaded a couple of hundred holes before it broke, so I guess I got my money's worth out of it. :roll:

At least brass gives you an audible warning that it is about to jam a tap or a drill. Steel isn't so accommodating.....

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:16 pm

GTB wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:55 pm
How are you using your taps?

One of the first things I made on the then new lathe was the little tailstock tap holder that is described by Brian Wilson in his book 'Steam Trains in Your Garden' at the start of Chapter 1. The same section of the book has a few paras. on tapping holes and threading parts that contains useful information. Brian is as averse to breaking taps as I am.....

The other thing I always use is a cutting fluid, in brass and especially in steel. I think I've used about 5ml in the last 8 years, you don't need much.

It's courting fate I know, but I can honestly say I've only broken three small taps (one was a 10BA) in the last 8 years since I changed scale. I use a lot of 10BA screws in my models and the 10BA tap had probably threaded a couple of hundred holes before it broke, so I guess I got my money's worth out of it. :roll:

At least brass gives you an audible warning that it is about to jam a tap or a drill. Steel isn't so accommodating.....

Regards,
Graeme
Hi Graeme

I use my taps in my home made tap holder from a cheapo drill press. It ensures I always go in straight with no side force on the tap. The down side is it's rather large and I think a little over the top for what size taps I am starting to use.

Image

My dies I use my homemade die holder in the tailstock on the lathe, these were one of the very first things I ever made years back when I got my first lathe and to this day I am still surprised how well they fit and how well they were finished considering they were made on a badly setup 7 x 14 mini lathe with cheap tools, I doubt I could make them as good as this if I tried now, lol :lol: I am aware there is quite a bit of chatter on the surfaces, but still, I am quite proud of them :)

Image

Image

You have done very well to break so few taps, maybe because they are better quality than mine but no doubt mainly down to knowing how to use them and when to stop. :thumbup:

As for my scrap parts, suffice to say, it already needs a box rather than just a little corner of the worktop as I had no idea what to do with them at first, lol. To be fair, many of them are just going straight in the bin.

I do have cutting fluid, maybe it's about time I started to use it again as I have become lazy with it and stopped using it a while back.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:18 pm

dewintondave wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:17 am I always buy carbon steel Steve, it's good for what we do. I jumped scales so I could wave goodbye to 10 BA :D
Carbon it is then :thumbup: Why do you not use 10ba any more?? How come? What do you use instead? Are you just doing 7 1/4 or 5" now?
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:25 pm

FWLR wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:58 am
Good job Steve, lots done. You are experiencing what most of us have done....Just that little bit more will do it. :roll: :roll:

You will find Steve, that carbon steel is the much older material that was used for machining and especially taps. High Speed Steel (HSS) is that it can withstand higher temperatures without losing its temper (hardness).

Keep with it Steve, your'e doing a great job and it's all a learning curve. Don't get disheartened with mishaps, let them inspire you to be an engineer that is proud of his/her work. Remember Steve, you don't need qualifications to be regarded has someone who can do the job.
Thanks Rod.

I did get disheartened when that tap broke, but another way made so not the end of the world, I would say the third one was marginally better anyway and took far less time to make too ;)

In general I am loving this home made loco, keeps me on my toes and I am as keen as any thing, can't wait to get out there and make another bit. I have to admit it's going faster than I thought it would overall, but I can't get over just how long just one part actually takes to make, maybe because I am having to work out what method to use to make something first and can't just crack on with it like an experienced person would. I am also learning how much material I can safely take of using the mill and lathe, so taking it quite gentle compared to someone in the know.

Not sure I would ever call myself an engineer, that's a pretty big label, but certainly a keen trainee :) :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:43 pm

A small update for today.

I managed to get the other two cranks made today. They aren't all the same identical shape on the outside, however they do all have the exact same bolt / thread spacing so will all rotate at the same measurements ;) I will tidy up the outside of them at some point when my arms stop aching from all that filing down of steel, lol :lol:

I also made a start on the frame / cylinder part, not sure what it's called but it is made of 10mm brass which was not the cheapest material I have ever purchased so I am glad that "so far" it's all going to plan and fits the frame very well. I still have some holes to drill and mill so it's not over yet, lol :lol:

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:47 pm

-steves- wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:18 pm
dewintondave wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:17 am I always buy carbon steel Steve, it's good for what we do. I jumped scales so I could wave goodbye to 10 BA :D
Carbon it is then :thumbup: Why do you not use 10ba any more?? How come? What do you use instead? Are you just doing 7 1/4 or 5" now?
I'm doing 1' scale now, so 10BA has become a less inclined to snap 8BA :thumbup: Still on 45mm gauge track
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Dave

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:13 pm

dewintondave wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:47 pm
I'm doing 1' scale now, so 10BA has become a less inclined to snap 8BA :thumbup: Still on 45mm gauge track
Very nice, good choice, think I may have to consider this, just for the cost of 10BA taps, lol :lol:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm

-steves- wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:16 pm I use my taps in my home made tap holder from a cheapo drill press.
I've been meaning to build a bench tapping fixture for the last 30 years, after seeing one in a friend's workshop. I still haven't found the right size of Round Tuit yet....... :roll:

My tailstock die holders are rudimentary, but do the job. Never seen the point of polishing up homemade tooling, it doesn't work any better.

The photo shows the tap holder I use for 10BA and 8BA. The knurled bit is about 3/4" dia., so it's hard to apply enough torque to break even a 10BA tap. I used to grip it in a drill chuck in both the lathe and the mill, but that took up too much space on the lathe, so a while back I drilled a suitable size hole in a blank arbor and fitted a clamping screw.

Tap Holder.jpg
Tap Holder.jpg (137.86 KiB) Viewed 13715 times

It's definitely worth using tapping compound, as it reduces the force needed to cut the thread and also slows the rate of wear on the taps and dies.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:23 pm

GTB wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm
I've been meaning to build a bench tapping fixture for the last 30 years, after seeing one in a friend's workshop. I still haven't found the right size of Round Tuit yet....... :roll:

My tailstock die holders are rudimentary, but do the job. Never seen the point of polishing up homemade tooling, it doesn't work any better.

The photo shows the tap holder I use for 10BA and 8BA. The knurled bit is about 3/4" dia., so it's hard to apply enough torque to break even a 10BA tap. I used to grip it in a drill chuck in both the lathe and the mill, but that took up too much space on the lathe, so a while back I drilled a suitable size hole in a blank arbor and fitted a clamping screw.


Tap Holder.jpg


It's definitely worth using tapping compound, as it reduces the force needed to cut the thread and also slows the rate of wear on the taps and dies.

Regards,
Graeme
I do like that tap holder for the tail stock, think I might ahve to make (copy) something like that for myself, looks very useful and I love the idea of the knurled 3/4" bit so you don't over do it :thumbup: I don't suppose you have any more pictures or dimensions for that, lol :lol: :D
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:26 pm

A little bit more today, 2 steps forwards and one step backwards though I am afraid :shock:

I managed to get one of the cylinders just about complete and soldered up to it's steam block, yay :thumbup: The other one however, had some drill slippage and the drill started on the correct path, but when it met it mate on the other direction, the drill had wandered while drilling and it pulled it a considerable way off line, far enough that I will have to remake that part from scratch, yippee :oops:

Still, now the 10ba bolts have turned up I have managed to get a few parts together so it's starting to look like something now (not sure what), rather than just a box of bits. Onwards and upwards :)

The chassis so far, I have wheels and eccentrics and a few other bits, but just no stainless 4mm bar to put them all together with, lol. If you look really carefully you can see the big end bearing on the crank (ok maybe not as it's so tiny), a massive 3.5mm round, a 2mm hole and a 4mm shoulder that's 0.5mm wide, well that needed some glasses to machine I can tell you :lol:

Image

The offending steam block that slipped and will put me back a bit as I will have to buy another bit of brass too :oops:

Image
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:54 pm

-steves- wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:23 pm I don't suppose you have any more pictures or dimensions for that,
As it happens........

Tap Holder-2.jpg
Tap Holder-2.jpg (55.55 KiB) Viewed 13669 times

I used some off-cuts of BMS bar I had in stock, as the only critical dimensions are the dia. of the hole for the tap and the position of the grub screw. I wasn't about to turn the whole thing out of solid, so the grip is a small piece of 3/4" BMS knurled and drilled separately and then pressed on.

The sleeve is the bit gripped by the chuck and this one is 11mm od and 50mm long, with an 8mm hole drilled through it.

The body is another piece of 11mm od about 60mm long. The spigot is 30mm long, turned down to be a nice running fit in the sleeve. The grip is a piece of 3/4" dia., knurled, drilled 8mm and cut off at 10mm long. The tap end of the body is turned down for a length of 18mm to be a press fit in the grip.

My 10BA, 8BA, 6BA and M2 taps all have 1/8" shanks, so a hole that size is drilled in the end of the body, deep enough to take most of the tap shank. The grub screw is M3, positioned so it engages a flat on the tap shank, that way when loading the tap, the grubscrew only needs to be nipped up enough to stop the tap falling out, as the flat stops the tap turning in the holder.

I've not seen anything remotely similar available commercially, but it's worth it's weight in broken taps........ ;)

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:38 pm

GTB wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:54 pm
-steves- wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:23 pm I don't suppose you have any more pictures or dimensions for that,
As it happens........


I used some off-cuts of BMS bar I had in stock, as the only critical dimensions are the dia. of the hole for the tap and the position of the grub screw. I wasn't about to turn the whole thing out of solid, so the grip is a small piece of 3/4" BMS knurled and drilled separately and then pressed on.

The sleeve is the bit gripped by the chuck and this one is 11mm od and 50mm long, with an 8mm hole drilled through it.

The body is another piece of 11mm od about 60mm long. The spigot is 30mm long, turned down to be a nice running fit in the sleeve. The grip is a piece of 3/4" dia., knurled, drilled 8mm and cut off at 10mm long. The tap end of the body is turned down for a length of 18mm to be a press fit in the grip.

My 10BA, 8BA, 6BA and M2 taps all have 1/8" shanks, so a hole that size is drilled in the end of the body, deep enough to take most of the tap shank. The grub screw is M3, positioned so it engages a flat on the tap shank, that way when loading the tap, the grubscrew only needs to be nipped up enough to stop the tap falling out, as the flat stops the tap turning in the holder.

I've not seen anything remotely similar available commercially, but it's worth it's weight in broken taps........ ;)

Regards,
Graeme
I will be making one of those as soon as I get material and spare workshop time, but hopefully not far off as I think that will prove very useful for this build :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:16 pm

I had a very sneaky workshop visit today, had to work fast as it's the wife's birthday and she went shopping so while she was out I popped in there. I managed to cut down a new cylinder holder, mill it out, drill it out and even solder it to the existing cylinder.

I still need to put a flat edge on the sides for the slide bars to bolt to and I also need to shorten some of the screws as they are a bit long at the moment. Small steps all in the right direction, at least it all fits together at the moment :thumbup:

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by FWLR » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:28 am

Love it Steve...Your nipping into the workshop...We need to do things on the quiet sometimes..... :lol: :lol:

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:56 pm

Indeed we do, it's good to have some sneaky time in the workshop :thumbup:

Well today. I finished the cylinders, or at least for now as I have a suspicion that I am going to end up remaking the back covers again as there are some issues that might stop things happening down the line, we shall see and I remain hopeful that everything will fit later :shock:

So, I made the threaded section that screws into the rear cylinder cover and the piston rod comes out of, that all went well. I cut down the 10ba screws that were slightly oversize and screwed all the cylinder covers on properly. I managed to get some proper 4mm silver steel for the axles as I originally only had mild steel so I cut those to length and popped all the running gear onto the to ensure they were a good fit. I also manged to 1/4 it up and everything seems to run fairly smoothly considering they have no oil and zero running in. Pretty happy with efforts so far, but far from perfect, lol :lol: Ignore where the grub screws are as one of them slipped and drilled off centre, but it does not affect the actual crank arm and it 1/4'rd up fine, just have to not do it on the grub screw position.

Image

And here it is with the boiler plonked on top of it, just to see it look a bit more than a flat chassis really, lol ;)

Image
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Keith S » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:13 pm

How I wish I lived nearby and could nip round for a visit to see this model being built. I've always wanted to build my own steam engine, but the lathe and mill work seems so daunting. I'm enjoying this thread. Sometimes when I see how easy this stuff is for guys like Tony Bird for instance, well it's easy to say "well I'll never be able to do that". But watching a relative newcomer taking a challenge the way you're doing- somehow that's more inspiring.

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