Another Wild Rose Project

What is your latest project?
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:42 pm

-steves- wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:55 pm If any of the more skilled metalworking people care to comment on how to cut a 1mm thick, 300mm x 300mm sheet of steel to get straight metal that is just 3.5mm wide and accurate over 50mm then I am only too happy to hear from you.
What are you like with a piercing saw?

I cut out all my brass and steel sheet metal parts using a piercing saw, a selection of blades and a homemade oversize version of a jewellers bench peg. I usually clamp the sheet to the peg to stop it moving while cutting, especially thicker sheet. Once the cut edges have been finished by draw filing they are as good as any laser cut part.

The frames, slidebars, motion bracket and sundry other parts of the loco frame shown in this old thread were cut from 3mm and 1.5mm steel plate with this equipment. The 3mm frames took a couple of hours each and many blades, due to all the curved cuts, but straight narrow strips for slidebars would be ten minutes or so and a couple of blades.

https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 1&p=103918

Not everyone gets on with a piercing saw. Which pretty much leaves just laser cutting, but I can't use CAD and the cost of getting one off parts cut locally would send me broke. Water jet cutting also works nicely, but costs more. Spark erosion wire cutting gives the best finish, but is as slow as a wet week and so costs a fortune.

LBSC used to suggest turning the hacksaw blade through 90deg and cutting strips horizontally holding the stock in a vice and using the vice jaws as a guide. Not sure that would do the vice jaws a lot of good.....

The blades available for metal cutting bandsaws won't cut anything thinner than 1.5mm in my experience and all I use mine for in this context is long straight cuts when roughing out blanks for subsequent marking out and cutting frames. Which then get finished with the piercing saw.

To mill something and get the sides parallel I use thin parallels to support the part in the vice while milling, but that isn't how I make slidebars. Quicker and easier to saw them out slightly oversize and then draw file down to the scribed line.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:28 pm

GTB wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:42 pm
-steves- wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:55 pm If any of the more skilled metalworking people care to comment on how to cut a 1mm thick, 300mm x 300mm sheet of steel to get straight metal that is just 3.5mm wide and accurate over 50mm then I am only too happy to hear from you.
What are you like with a piercing saw?

I cut out all my brass and steel sheet metal parts using a piercing saw, a selection of blades and a homemade oversize version of a jewellers bench peg. I usually clamp the sheet to the peg to stop it moving while cutting, especially thicker sheet. Once the cut edges have been finished by draw filing they are as good as any laser cut part.

The frames, slidebars, motion bracket and sundry other parts of the loco frame shown in this old thread were cut from 3mm and 1.5mm steel plate with this equipment. The 3mm frames took a couple of hours each and many blades, due to all the curved cuts, but straight narrow strips for slidebars would be ten minutes or so and a couple of blades.

https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 1&p=103918

Not everyone gets on with a piercing saw. Which pretty much leaves just laser cutting, but I can't use CAD and the cost of getting one off parts cut locally would send me broke. Water jet cutting also works nicely, but costs more. Spark erosion wire cutting gives the best finish, but is as slow as a wet week and so costs a fortune.

LBSC used to suggest turning the hacksaw blade through 90deg and cutting strips horizontally holding the stock in a vice and using the vice jaws as a guide. Not sure that would do the vice jaws a lot of good.....

The blades available for metal cutting bandsaws won't cut anything thinner than 1.5mm in my experience and all I use mine for in this context is long straight cuts when roughing out blanks for subsequent marking out and cutting frames. Which then get finished with the piercing saw.

To mill something and get the sides parallel I use thin parallels to support the part in the vice while milling, but that isn't how I make slidebars. Quicker and easier to saw them out slightly oversize and then draw file down to the scribed line.

Regards,
Graeme
Hi Graeme

I think you over estimate my engineering skills, lol ;) I have no idea what a piercing saw is, no do I know what draw filing is either. I will have a look online and see what they are and get back to you shortly ;)

I really appreciate the advice and guidance, exactly what I was looking for, thank you :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by tom_tom_go » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:30 pm

Again, appreciate the responses to this thread as these are questions I need answering as well.

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:52 pm

Oily Rag wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:25 pm Hi Steve,
I have to agree completely with Graeme. I had written quite an epistle on the subject, but not only did Graeme beat me to it, it also failed to post up properly. Just a couple of tips from me. Don't drink the night before cutting things out with a piercing saw. You need a steady hand as the blades are quite delicate. It is best used like a fretsaw with balde vertical, teeth pointing downwards so the cut is on the down stroke. I try to pick a tooth pitch which gives me at least three teeth in contact with the material thickness, and let the saw do the work. Forcing it will break blades, yep i know done it.

The other thing is support for the work. I knock up a little VEE table from wood about 6MM thick say 150mm long by 75mm wide. Cut a VEE about 20degrees included angle about 75 long on the centre of a short side. I screw a bl;ock on the back clear of the VEE which means it can be held in bench vice and I can sit up close to the work. If you then over cut the blade will usually survive a light cut into the wood,. Keep the work rigid either with finger pressure or arrange a toolmakers clamp, cut a bit, move the work, reclamp etc. Finishing is with the file I'm afraid, draw filing down to final size. This is all very frustrating, requires patience but a "feel" for it is soon established and its very useful skill. Yep these old techniques are often pooh poohed, but they do work. Just look at Acme Whistles, the Thunderer is still made and in much the same way as it always was. In fact this very evening our local TV news carried an article on them and they still have the Flypresses they have had for many many years.

Sorry I can't provide any quick fixes but I am sure others will be along to provide some refinement to my crude methods.
GTB wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:42 pm
What are you like with a piercing saw?

Quicker and easier to saw them out slightly oversize and then draw file down to the scribed line.
OK, from what I have just read up on these methods they are the preferred hand tooling methods that are still used and a my best option to get the parts from sheet metal.

I had no idea what draw filing was, I do now and I can see that will be useful , so thanks to Ian and Graeme there :thumbup:

OK, a piercing saw, looks a bit like a fret saw, which I do have, both the hand held version and the electric scroll saw type, could I use either of these as a piercing saw or do I need to purchase the correct tool for the job?

The 3 teeth in contact with the work seems a pretty good rule of thumb from what I have just read and seen, so I will be sticking with that as a general guide.

Ian, I can't quite picture your VEE table thing, if you have any pictures I would really appreciate it :thumbup:

Graeme, you really do over estimate my engineering skills, lol, you mean my big black Sharpie line doesn't quite meet the scribe line, my problem is I can never see any lines I scribe, so I gave up and used an ultra fine Sharpie, which is about 1mm wide :oops: :oops: :(

To add to what Tom said, I also really appreciate Ian and Graeme replying to my newbie and what must sometimes seem dumb questions, but my motto has always been, if you don't know, don't be ashamed, just ask, nothing to lose by asking :thumbup: As you have probably guessed I ask lots ;) :lol:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:13 pm

-steves- wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:52 pm Graeme, you really do over estimate my engineering skills, lol, you mean my big black Sharpie line doesn't quite meet the scribe line, my problem is I can never see any lines I scribe, so I gave up and used an ultra fine Sharpie, which is about 1mm wide :oops: :oops: :(
Don't confuse education with skill. Education may, or may not, teach you what to do. Skill comes from aptitude and experience.

Some of this will probably cover what Ian was going to say. Don't let that stop you Ian, there's usually more than one way to do something.


Marking Out.

You are halfway there Steve.......

One way to make a scribe line more visible is to use a wide marking pen to cover the area with black ink, then scribe. The 'correct' way to do it is to use Marking Out Blue, which is just a blue ink, but you can't buy that in the local newsagent like you can marking pens. You could always use a blue marker to make it look more professional I suppose......;)

The pic below shows my usual marking out tools on the metal working bench. A 4" pair of calipers, a scribe and a 6" ruler.

Marking Out.jpg
Marking Out.jpg (90.79 KiB) Viewed 15263 times

The workpiece is a bit of 1.5mm hot rolled steel plate that has been draw filed to give a straight reference edge and scribed to mark out a 3.5mm strip. It's already got a dark surface, so the line scribed with the callipers is quite visible if you have plenty of light. If it was nice clean shiny cold rolled sheet, I'd have run a wide line of ink along that side of the workpiece. The calipers were set to 3.5mm using the ruler, then run along using the reference edge as a step to give a scribe line parallel to the reference edge. A few minutes with the piercing saw and a #2 blade, a bit of draw filing and you have a straight, flat strip with parallel sides.

The drawing shows the frames for my current project. I'd go crazy marking all that out on a steel sheet, so I just glue the paper image on a piece of steel sheet, drill a few starting holes and start cutting.....


Piercing Saws.

The next photo shows the jewellers saws I use for cutting out parts.

Piercing Saws.jpg
Piercing Saws.jpg (117.27 KiB) Viewed 15263 times

The small saw is an Eclipse No. 50ps, bought from the long gone Model Dockyard in Melbourne 45+ years ago. This type is known in the jewellery trade as an English pattern saw and is my preference for cutting small parts in brass and steel. Not sure Eclipse still make them, but there are plenty of copies available. The throat depth limits it though for cutting large parts like frames.

For cutting frames and other long parts I use the larger German pattern jewellers saw with a 200mm throat, bought from the jewellers supplier in Melbourne that I use for a lot of small hand tools. That's also where I buy my saw blades. The german saw came with a small tapered handle I couldn't get used to, so I changed it to a larger one, which gives me a good grip.

Not shown in the photo is an Eclipse FS70 fret saw that only I use when the cut is too long for the german frame. As Ian said, it is unwieldy and difficult to use on metal and I only get it out when there is no alternative. The last job it did was cutting the frames and footplate for the big Bagnall 2-6-2.


Bench Peg.

The last photo shows my bench peg set up in the vice with a piece of steel clamped in place ready to cut.

Bench Peg.jpg
Bench Peg.jpg (143.14 KiB) Viewed 15263 times

It was made from a pine offcut in the bits box, with a cleat screwed and glued in place so it can be gripped in the small vice. As Ian has described it has a hole bored near the front and a wedge cut out, which is hidden by the front clamp. My toolmakers clamps are too small for this job and I use various size G clamps.

I'm left handed, so it is set up for me to cut a long thin strip on the side facing the camera. Which is also why the vice is bolted at the r/h end of the bench. There is an angle poise lamp clamped to the back of the bench to provide enough light for me to see the scribe line and follow it with the saw. The setup is at a comfortable height to use while sitting down and everything is in focus when I wear my workshop glasses. Swarf builds up and can obscure the line as you cut, so I keep a cheap paintbrush on the bench to brush it away as I go.


Saw Blades.

The jewellers supplier I use sells Indian made blades, German made blades and Swiss made blades. The Indian ones are cheaper and don't always cut straight, the German ones are better and if you have the money, the Swiss ones are best. Even the Swiss ones only cost me 40 cents each and while I've used the German ones for a long while, now that I don't break as many blades I recently bought some Swiss ones to try.

If you look on the net, you will find plenty of jewellery making sites with tables to tell you what size blade to use for what thickness metal and how to use a jewellers saw. Basically though it come down to Ian's rule of having at least 3 teeth in contact all the time. The same applies to any metal cutting blade, such as hacksaw and bandsaw blades, you need 3 teeth in contact to cut without jamming.

The only sheet thicknesses I use are 0.6mm and 0.8mm in brass and cold rolled steel, as well as 1.5mm and 3mm in hot rolled steel. Plus the occasional bit of K&S 1/32" and 1/16" brass strip.

I use #2 saw blades for the thicker steel sheets and #3/0 for the brass and steel sheets under 1mm. Blades last longer on straight cuts and longer again in brass. If you cut a lot of small radius curves, or sharp internal corners, the set on the side of the teeth wears rapidly and the blade soon jams as the clearance in the cut reduces. When it jams, it breaks.

Piercing saws are designed to cut vertically with the weight of the saw doing the work and the teeth point down so the blade is in tension while cutting. They aren't miniature hacksaws and don't work well when used horizontally. As Ian said, you get better with practice and eventually develop a rhythm that gives a smooth cut.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:11 pm

Oily Rag wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:22 pm Ian
GTB wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:13 pm Graeme
I thought I would quote both your names to save quoting entire posts.

I would like to thank you both for all of this, some very helpful ways to do things and most definitely the way I will be doing my marking and cutting as soon as funds allow to buy the saw and blades. No problem knocking up something to go in the vice, but I might have to move my vice as it's already really on the wrong side for me and this won't help matters. Food for thought as I have a VERY small workshop and space is extremely limited.

They were both very in depth, simple to follow (even I managed), very informative posts and I am pretty sure I will not be the only one from this forum making the most of both of you sharing your skills on here. I am not sure a simple thank you really covers how I feel, but unfortunately it's all I have, so a big, massive thank you to you both. :thumbleft: :thumbup:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:47 pm

This thread deserves to be a sticky, it is done!

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:53 pm

I wished I live near people that could show me hands on skills like these so this is the next best thing...

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Busted Bricks » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:22 pm

Cutting sheet metal is a job for a laser! Cutting time on a frame for a 16mm scale loco is measured in seconds.

Of course very few hobbyists have a metal cutting laser but you have Model Engineers Laser in UK that offers cutting at reasonable prices. I can probably do it much cheaper but then there is postage and potentially duty to pay (after UK leaves EU).

The frame part for a Cracker loco pictured below will take app. 10 seconds to cut from 1.5mm mild steel. I know the estimation says 12.5 seconds but for some reason it is always a bit over actual cutting time.
cracker laser.png
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:48 pm

Postage wipes out the cost save.

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Wed May 01, 2019 9:14 am

Those are excellent posts lads. Very informative :thumbup:
Best wishes,
Dave

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 11:00 am

tom_tom_go wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:53 pm I wished I live near people that could show me hands on skills like these so this is the next best thing...
I completely echo this, it's so much easier to learn from someone showing you something directly and it would be a privilege to have such skills to hand to learn all these things and more. We are lucky on here to have such skilled people willing to share their skills and experience. Unfortunately there is a distant lack of engineering people around this area, if I wanted someone to teach me how to do a lecture on boimechanical neutron partical theory, then I could line them up down the road, that's Cambridge for you! :lol:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Wed May 01, 2019 11:49 am

Busted Bricks wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:22 pm Cutting sheet metal is a job for a laser! Cutting time on a frame for a 16mm scale loco is measured in seconds.
You're kind of missing the meaning of the words 'retirement hobby'.......

Yes, if I was making models commercially, I'd have spent the time to learn CAD and I'd be using subcontractors for laser cutting, chemical etching, CNC and the rest of the alphabet soup of modern techniques, as I'd need to build at least a couple of models a week to make a living.

However, I'm retired, don't need to supplement my income and have the time to treat making little steam locos as a craft. It doesn't matter if it takes me 6 months to build a small loco, it keeps me amused and off the streets.......

As well as that, there's a much greater sense of accomplishment from making a working machine with my hands and basic tools. Rather than sitting on my bum in front of a computer, then pressing a button and waiting for parts to drop into the letterbox.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by Busted Bricks » Wed May 01, 2019 12:33 pm

GTB wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 11:49 am
Busted Bricks wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:22 pm Cutting sheet metal is a job for a laser! Cutting time on a frame for a 16mm scale loco is measured in seconds.
You're kind of missing the meaning of the words 'retirement hobby'.......
Not really - even people with lots of time on their hands might find certain tasks tedious or difficult and if they need to buy in new tools there may not be any saving. In my hobbies there are certain things I make myself and there are things I buy in. Does anyone make their own gas valves for instance? I'm also pretty sure there are members of this forum who are not yet retired and my original response was not aimed at you directly.

I merely wanted to point out that you have a good, affordable supplier of laser cut parts in UK should you wish to use such a service. IIRC, OP actually started off with some laser cut frame parts. I also know some retired people that enjoy CAD work as part of the hobby. Horses for courses really.

With regards to skill sharing, I think many of us are in a situation where we don't know anyone locally who can show us the ropes. Luckily we have Youtube - there is nearly always several "how to" videos to be found of any given topic that you want to learn more about. Of course it wold be nice to be able to sit down with someone over a cuppa it's just not always possible.

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by GTB » Wed May 01, 2019 3:45 pm

Busted Bricks wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 12:33 pm Does anyone make their own gas valves for instance?
Depends on what you mean by gas valve. I often make my own gas control valves and a lot of published 16mm designs include the gas control valve.

The only things I never make on a model are gas filler valves, gas jets and pressure gauges.

Graeme

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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 5:14 pm

A little time in the workshop today and a little over the last couple of days.

Pretty much got most of the motion stuff made, other than the few bits that I mentioned before that I have ordered, but will still attempt to build them just for practice when they arrive.

This picture shows most of one side of the cylinders, cross head, steam chest and today I even started on the steam unions. I do have a question there though as I have no clue how the steam pipes are supposed to connect. I have made part of the steam tee and will sliver solder it together as and when I get some 3/32 steam pipe. But, there will be an ME thread poking up, waiting for a union to go on it, what stops that pipe pushing out, is it somehow flared over? Is there a special kit for that? I have one to do brake pipes, but is there a special one for 3/32 and as I have no countersink what stops the steam just escaping? See loads of badly phrased questions that no one will have a clue over, lol.

Oh the picture, ignore the black pen, it's just for reference to get things on the same way they came off :)

Image
Last edited by -steves- on Wed May 01, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 5:20 pm

As this post covers pretty much everything in the world, I thought I would post these pictures up in here as well. The purpose as I said from day one was to always build a live steam loco from scratch. I have the following "kit" bits in the photos in the shed in a box and the intent "one day" is to have a go at building it. I figured I would start with 16mm as that's my garden railway and would be more useful

The box might be a little bigger than it looks?

Image

To put it in scale better...

Image

Image

Image

The box again

Image
Last edited by -steves- on Wed May 01, 2019 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 pm

ytrhgf
Last edited by -steves- on Wed May 01, 2019 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by -steves- » Wed May 01, 2019 7:58 pm

Oily Rag wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:35 pm That sounds a nice project to have on the back burner Steve. "JULIETs" are well thought of in the l;arger scale field. Was it not one of LBSC's designs? I am not sure.
Good to know they are well thought of. Yes that's the one, LBCS, I couldn't remember earlier :)
Oily Rag wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:35 pm As the 25 quid. That was what my pal said it owed him. He had bid for those boxes of bits, some old Mamods and the like and those parts for the MINNIE just happend to be in the bottom of one of the boxes. A great find both for him and me. There have been many MINNIEs made and there is now even a set of drawings on the 'net for a metric version.

Some of the castings I have, have been badly machined but won't be too bad to hack out of solid. Its one of things like a good book, I can pick it up and put it down without any pressure as the mood takes. Really my next move with it is to make a jig suggested in the book to spoke up the wheels. I do want to change the design of the jig a bit to suit my methods of working but all will come out of scrap, offcut bits and a piece of 3/4" ply left over from topping out the workbenches.We too have had harder times financially so often making things was the only option. You know its fun! Really.And now I want to make everything, have a better garden (for the railway of course ahem) but that is not completely possible so my time is fuller than ever.
I am sure you will rectify and remake any parts necessary :)

I too am in the process of doing the garden, I learnt to mix and lay concrete the other day, another skill added to the set, lol :lol:
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Re: Another Wild Rose Project

Post by dewintondave » Thu May 02, 2019 8:11 am

I think it's important to keep using the saws and files, otherwise the skills will drop off. I made a gas valve for an engine, lovely fine thread and fine taper, it was just like making a regulator. It's fitted to the 220g gas cylinder adaptor, I bought the hand wheel though :D
Best wishes,
Dave

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